UK: Foreign student visas to be cut by UK

It's a lot faster to learn a foreign language whilst immersed in a culture that speaks it.  Of course, Historyenne and I disagree on the length of time that takes, but she probably agrees that it's a lot quicker than taking courses at school.

There are immersion courses that try to do that without actually going to a country that speaks the language, but they aren't going to be available to everyone.

That said, there does need to be something to close up this weakness which has been abused.  The government has to weigh the cost of the lost legitimate immigration and the not insignificant revenue that foreign students raise.  Think of them as some of the "premium" immigrants if you buy into the government's phrasing.

However, I think there will just be another method abused until it is legislated into impracticality for many legitimate immigrants and migrants.

People come here to do English courses because English is essential for their careers and the language learning facilities in their own countries are inadequate.  The best way to learn language is by being immersed in it, it is simply not possible to do that without coming to a native-speaking country.  Not trying to be snarky, but your post is demonstrative of the pervasive ignorance in this country about language students and "foreigners" in general, that makes this kind of short-sighted legislation possible.  Not everyone wants to do a "proper university course."  Some just want to come here to learn English, so that they can return to their own countries and use it.  I have taught hundreds of students and not a single one has expressed any interest in living permanently in the UK.  Most can't wait to get home.  They're here because they understand the importance of being able to speak English, not because they see the UK as a land of opportunity.  Obviously, there are some desperate people who do want to move here permanently and who abuse the student system in order to do that, but there are also hundreds of legitimate language schools who will be seriously and adversely affected by this.  It is actually pretty offensive of you to be so blase about the destruction of an industry that employs thousands of British people, particularly when the economy is already so dire.  The lucky ones will be able to relocate overseas and take their revenue-generating capabilities to countries with more foresight, others will simply take their places in the dole queue.  You may think I'm being melodramatic, but I personally know several people who have already lost their jobs because of this and everyone at my school is desperately worried.  We do everything by the book and all our students are legitimate, but we will still lose a significant number of our lower-level students because they won't be able to meet the language requirement.  Hence them being here in the first place.  The English teaching industry is much more crucial to the British economy than you, or indeed the government, seem to understand.     

It's a lot faster to learn a foreign language whilst immersed in a culture that speaks it.  Of course, Historyenne and I disagree on the length of time that takes, but she probably agrees that it's a lot quicker than taking courses at school.

I agree. It is easier to learn a language whilst immersed in that society. But if the non legits are abusing the visa system, then tighten it. It pisses me off that there were so many freaken hoops to jump through to get my wife in this country and we were 100% fully legit.

There are immersion courses that try to do that without actually going to a country that speaks the language, but they aren't going to be available to everyone.
  

People, even the poorest, in God-forsaken Burma, can and do learn English. There are a variety of charity type schools that help. The are Christian churches, in Burma, that help their flock to learn English. There are proper schools that teach English. I know quite a few that actually learned English from the BBC and VOA (before the govt relented and allowed educational bodies back into the country after the Juanta's crack down).

Just saying, if someone wants to come here for education, they should have a basic level of English.

As for other methods of illegals of obtaining entry, well they'll find ways. But I do think this was a loop hole that needed tightening up.

Historyenne calling me ignorant won't get you a response. You obviously have a vested interested whereas I do not.

They aren't talking about proving an applicant has "basic" English.

ETA: And you're preaching to the choir about family immigration.  You're not the only one who had to go through a lot to get his family here.

They aren't talking about proving an applicant has "basic" English.

Exactly, they are requiring a B2 level in the Common European Framework, which is upper-intermediate and takes years of dedicated study to achieve.  You can't get it from the BBC or a charity school.

And Lee Bei, I wasn't calling you personally ignorant, just saying that your "too many d*mn foreigners already" comment didn't exactly display a well-rounded understanding of the complexities of this situation.  I would love to hear a reasoned argument for your point of view, based on your own experiences.  

I don't think it's out of the question for asking that sort of level of English for non-language studies.  An exemption should be made for language schools, but perhaps it should be a higher standard of accreditation and ensuring language students attend the course or leave and leave at the end of the course.  Of course, a government would have to implement the Lib Dem's suggestion for monitoring migrants who leave the country (or stay beyond their leaves to remain) as well as enter to do this effectively.

We are already required to monitor our students' attendance and report any unexcused absences to the UKBA.  Just last week we expelled a student for non-attendance.  And legitimate, accredited universities already have language requirements in place.  At Bournemouth University, foreign students are required to have a minimum of 6.5 on their IELTS, which is roughly equivalent to B2.  However, many students who want to study at UK universities come to the language schools first to make sure that their English will be up to standard.  One of the things I do is teach a course that prepares foreign students for masters programmes at Bournemouth.  It is an English language and study skills course, with classes six hours a day for fifteen weeks.  It is difficult and gruelling, but all the students are amazingly dedicated and hard-working.  Most of them are never late or absent, and all of them have big plans for their lives when they return to their countries.  They pay three times the fees that British students do, work ten times as hard, and then they return home.  But these new rules would make them ineligible for visas because they don't meet the minimum language requirement until after they've finished the prep course.  How does a law like that benefit anyone?

_{Edited to fix a careless factual error}

Sorry if my agreeing with the govt is offensive.

I don't need to argue as the rules are to my liking. You need to argue with the gov't. It is affecting your industry, not mine. Offensive? Perhaps but that is might prerogative to state MY opinion.

Lots of people in lots of industries have lost jobs. not just yours. I dare say some loses would have been inevitable regardless of the visa change. Not saying there won't be some loses but I would like some figures of how much revenue is going to be lost directly to the clamp down.

And yes, the students you see are legit, you don't see the ones that don't even attend. How much do 'we' lose by them not paying tax, thievery etc etc.?

We are already required to monitor our students' attendance and report any unexcused absences to the UKBA.  Just last week we expelled a student for non-attendance.  And legitimate, accredited universities already have language requirements in place.  At Bournemouth University, foreign students are required to have a minimum of 6.5 on their TOEFL, which is roughly equivalent to B2.  However, many students who want to study at UK universities come to the language schools first to make sure that their English will be up to standard.  One of the things I do is teach a course that prepares foreign students for masters programmes at Bournemouth. 

I don't think the legitimate unis which already have language requirements are the problem even if this is mostly a perceived problem or a problem which has been dealt with with recent changes.

Sorry if my agreeing with the govt is offensive.

I don't need to argue as the rules are to my liking. You need to argue with the gov't. It is affecting your industry, not mine. Offensive? Perhaps but that is might prerogative to state MY opinion.

Lots of people in lots of industries have lost jobs. not just yours. I dare say some loses would have been inevitable regardless of the visa change. Not saying there won't be some loses but I would like some figures of how much revenue is going to be lost directly to the clamp down.

And yes, the students you see are legit, you don't see the ones that don't even attend. How much do 'we' lose by them not paying tax, thievery etc etc.?

It's not you agreeing or disagreeing with the government which is offensive, and I think you know that.

Do you really understand how much money is generated by foreign students or non-EEA immigrants who study the first three years they are in the country?

I don't see the ones that don't attend because ours do attend (with the occasional exception that we deal with through the required channels).  You are entitled to your opinion of course, but are you really arguing that because jobs have been lost in other industries due to economic forces over which the government has limited control, that that makes it OK for the government to destroy a thriving industry thereby making the situation worse?  All to pander to people whose first reaction to anything is "blame the foreigner?"  Really?

I don't think the legitimate unis which already have language requirements are the problem even if this is mostly a perceived problem or a problem which has been dealt with with recent changes.

The way I see it, the problem is fake schools who are set up only to provide bogus visas, and there must be a better way to deal with that problem than by placing crippling restrictions on legitimate students.  Many of the bogus schools have been shut down already.  But why should we (legit schools) suffer because others abuse the laws? 

Yeah, as the wife of someone who works at Imperial College, we're hoping this doesn't come around to hurt the revenue of big universities.  It's not the language requirements that would be the problem for the most part, but other measures.

If foreign students are put off by the UK and stop applying to the major unis at the numbers that they do, we can probably expect tuition hikes for people who now pay resident rates.

This is not caused by the recession. The timing in relation to the recession and future funding cuts is pretty grim.

I think Garry posted a while ago that this country is pretty much populist run.  That's why yellow journalism is almost criminal when it misinforms people.  I posted a link to a radio show around Christmas time on Radio 4 about this issue. I don't know if you listened to it, but it sort of scared me a bit.  I don't know the ins and outs of student visas, but I knew it was one sided and likely distorted.

ETA: That program also covered work after study visas and inter-country transfer issues, so I'd expect something on those as well.

Yup. I've been a cover teacher at language schools in London much of the past year. Looks like that industry will be decimated and my friends will be out of work. Oh well. I really hope the US doesn't follow suit.

Just saw Historyenne's post. Seconded. Hardly anyone I've taught wants to move here permanently (I won't add a snarky comment but it's hard to resist). They want to learn English and the UK is the most accessible place for many people because it's harder to go to the U.S. and the 20 hour a week work allowance permits people to fund their stay. As a former student visa holder myself I can assure people there is NO WAY to collect benefits or money here. If you don't work in the U.K., sayonara, you can go home because living in the street is not terribly appealing. English language schools pay crap but it's a huge employer for, I don't know, freelance writers, musicians, semi-retired teachers, whoever. I'm not saying that the industry will be decimated, but it will be devastated. Or, as my husband wryly puts it, all the lower-intermediate students will now be upper, and the elementary students will be promoted as well.