Trying to understand the Dangerous Dog laws

This may have no bearing on anything, but isn't tail clipping illegal in the UK? Would that be considered?

That just stinks.  I don't understand why certain breeds of dogs should be banned. Pit bulls get a very bad reputation just because some jerks choose to abuse them and fight them and treat them badly. As a person who has been bitten by a dog, who wasn't a "dangerous breed," I don't see how they think this is helping anyone. Any dog could be aggressive, no matter what the breed. My grandma's chihuahua is meaner and than my best friend's pit bulls! 

The dangerous dogs law is an appalling piece of legislation, and it threw me for a loop when I found about it. Coming from Florida, the "land o'pit bulls" and having experienced (the epic fail) breed specific legislation in my home county of Miami-Dade this kind of thing makes me crazy grumpy.

It's just so ridiculously arbitrary, and I don't get how with the hordes of Staffordshire Terriers walking around that they can justify this law (hello, how is a Staffie *not* a "pit bull type dog"!?!?!?). It just boggles me.

The law was enacted purely for political gain, and has nothing to do with actually protecting the public from "dangerous dogs" (more like, dangerous people who are irresponsible pet owners).  

The law was enacted purely for political gain, and has nothing to do with actually protecting the public from "dangerous dogs" (more like, dangerous people who are irresponsible pet owners).  

True dat!

It's just so ridiculously arbitrary, and I don't get how with the hordes of Staffordshire Terriers walking around that they can justify this law (hello, how is a Staffie *not* a "pit bull type dog"!?!?!?). It just boggles me.

Too many MPs had Staffies, hence why they escaped the DDA, although it surprised many dog trainers that Staffies were left off the banned breed list.

You can tell how nice an area is like to live in, by the breeds of dogs that are in the area. The government are aware that banned breeds are being bred and some London areas are now actively seizing banned breeds and banned breed types.

For the last few years a new bill has been proposed to replace the DDA and that bill has Staffie owners and JRT owners, up in arms: on the dog forums these breed owners say that they feel the new law is aimed at their breeds. Dogs that attack other dogs or other animals are to be included in this new bill.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldbills/004/11004.1-4.html#j002
It is set to replace the DDA and will require dog owners to have control over their animals around people, dogs and other animals.

Now going through parliament, The Dog Control Bill http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/dogcontrolhl.html

Sillybadger - the website clearly states that if an animal looks like it has pitbull characteristics that he's going to be allowed into the UK, no matter what type or breed its parents were.

Sorry

Going to figure that's supposed to be "not going to be allowed" ;0)

That's exactly what I'm trying to find out - what set of "looks" guidelines does whoever is making the decision go by? Pits come in a dozen colors, can range between 35-60 lbs and from 18" -22" tall, and typically have a short smooth coat, wide head, and deep chest. There are a lot of dogs that could fall into that range. What I'd like to find out is
what their list of pitbull characteristics is, and how many of the individual points a dog would need to satisfy to be disallowed. I sent an email to a couple of different entities, but have not heard back.

If you ask some animal control or police officers here, anything that is brindled is a pit. Some will tell you that any short wide-chested or wide headed dog is a pit. Some will tell you that any large dog with cropped ears and tail is a pit. Whether or not a dog is denied space at a shelter and euthanized as "unadoptable" can depend entirely on who's working when they come in. My friend was denied an apartment lease because she has a Rhodesian ridgeback, and was told "people will think she's a pit". You'd think that long ridge of fur would be a dead giveaway, but they said it wasn't good enough.

(bangs head on desk repeatedly)

Going to figure that's supposed to be "not going to be allowed" ;0)

That's exactly what I'm trying to find out - what set of "looks" guidelines does whoever is making the decision go by? Pits come in a dozen colors, can range between 35-60 lbs and from 18" -22" tall, and typically have a short smooth coat, wide head, and deep chest. There are a lot of dogs that could fall into that range. What I'd like to find out is
what their list of pitbull characteristics is, and how many of the individual points a dog would need to satisfy to be disallowed. I sent an email to a couple of different entities, but have not heard back.

If you ask some animal control or police officers here, anything that is brindled is a pit. Some will tell you that any short wide-chested or wide headed dog is a pit. Some will tell you that any large dog with cropped ears and tail is a pit. Whether or not a dog is denied space at a shelter and euthanized as "unadoptable" can depend entirely on who's working when they come in. My friend was denied an apartment lease because she has a Rhodesian ridgeback, and was told "people will think she's a pit". You'd think that long ridge of fur would be a dead giveaway, but they said it wasn't good enough.

(bangs head on desk repeatedly)

There are no guidelines. This is what it says on the Defra website: "It is important to note that, in the UK, dangerous dogs are classified by “type”, not by breed label. This means that whether a dog is considered dangerous, and therefore prohibited, will depend on a judgment about its physical characteristics, and whether they match the description of a prohibited 'type'. This assessment of the physical characteristics is made by a court."

There are no guidelines. This is what it says on the Defra website: "It is important to note that, in the UK, dangerous dogs are classified by “type”, not by breed label. This means that whether a dog is considered dangerous, and therefore prohibited, will depend on a judgment about its physical characteristics, and whether they match the description of a prohibited 'type'. This assessment of the physical characteristics is made by a court."

Okay, I swear I am not deliberately trying to be an ass - but again, those "physical characteristics" and that "description of a prohibited type" are what I want to find out about. If there are physical characteristics that will be assessed by a court, then there has to be an established criterion somewhere. Otherwise, some goofball could pop in one morning and say "today's characteristics are a red coat, ears less than six inches, and a penchant for Barry Manilow music", and the next day might be "over 50 lbs, blue eyes, and a tendency to bark only at Man U fans".

He's not an AmStaffie; he's a boxer/APBT/lab mix.

As a APBT cross, your dog is banned from the UK by law.

My vet said he was fine with listing him as a boxer/lab mix on his paperwork, but if looks weighs in more than anything else, it could be a problem. I don't want someone to decide my dog should be dead before I could get an exemption.

Even if you do get your pitbull X into the country by trying to claim he isn't a banned breed, the police can still take the dog from you at any time, be it if they see your dog out with you, or a member of the public reports you to the police. You will then have to prove your dog is not a pitball X to stand a chance of getting him back. Hard enough for those that haven't got pitbull Xs, but nigh on impossible for those that have. It is a horrible law that has seen thousands of dogs destroyed, hence why the new law is coming in (which should have been better, but seems to be worse than the DDA).

Some people have put pictures of their dogs that have been destroyed under the DDA on the internet, such as http://www.ddawatch.co.uk/in_memory.html or on youtube. You might want to get a box of tissues before you look at the pictures.

Sillybadger, can you show us a photo of your doggy please? 

Okay, I swear I am not deliberately trying to be an ass - but again, those "physical characteristics" and that "description of a prohibited type" are what I want to find out about. If there are physical characteristics that will be assessed by a court, then there has to be an established criterion somewhere. Otherwise, some goofball could pop in one morning and say "today's characteristics are a red coat, ears less than six inches, and a penchant for Barry Manilow music", and the next day might be "over 50 lbs, blue eyes, and a tendency to bark only at Man U fans".

I totally understand your frustration - and I get what you mean, it does say "description of prohibited type" but from what I understand (other UK vets have told me this, of course they could be wrong) and what I have been able to find online - there actually aren't any guidelines set out. :-(

As a APBT cross, your dog is banned from the UK by law.

My vet suggested listing him as a boxer/lab mix because the program his office uses to generate paperwork only allows for two slots under the "breed" category, which are selected from a drop down menu, not typed in. So he picks which two categories suit the dog best. He's also told me that given his size and head shape, he thinks the original breed designation on the paperwork from the shelter is questionable, and he could be a mastiff/boxer mix. As far as he's aware, his practice would be the ones to make that call over the original shelter, as a vet wasn't consulted on that.

Some people have put pictures of their dogs that have been destroyed under the DDA on the internet, such as http://www.ddawatch.co.uk/in_memory.html or on youtube. You might want to get a box of tissues before you look at the pictures.

Now THAT gives me some comparative reference point to work from! Thank you!

Everybody says that, frequently followed by "give up". But when you've got 20-odd years' worth of abuse documentation, in a file cabinet in case it's ever needed for court, including pics of the ones you had to put down yourself because there was no helping them, you don't cry anymore. You just get pissed and you howl for someone's head. And then you get better at networking for legislative change.

I totally understand your frustration - and I get what you mean, it does say "description of prohibited type" but from what I understand (other UK vets have told me this, of course they could be wrong) and what I have been able to find online - there actually aren't any guidelines set out. :-(

And that's the sticky part we run into over here, and why I put the Find-The-Pit game out there. Rulings get made by people who, even in a professional capacity, have no clue what they're looking for or at. Anyone in a dog-related profession should be able to tell a Ridgeback, Bordeaux, or Basenji when they see one, but some of them can't, and can't be bothered to look them up either. That shouldn't be accepted as competence.

I wondered how they handle dogs coming into the country for shows if the ruling is all based on looks, and breed designations don't matter. Also how they handle service dogs. I emailed a friend who used to work for a woman who has been in the UK to compete. Will pass along what she says if you want.

Sillybadger, can you show us a photo of your doggy please? 

Took me long enough - I reformatted this HD a bit ago, and can't find my spindle of picture backups!

Here's a few shots I did find:

http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/goatpossum/Muggsy%20shots/

The scar pic shows the thing that sets most people off that he must be dangerous, unless they have some perspective on what real fight scars or burn tissue actually look like.

He's 27" tall, 25" chest to tail, and 78 lbs.

I'm going to keep an eye on how the law goes. We're not moving for a specific job or anything; we're looking at moving because the better half wants to go back, and I'm happy to go along for several reasons. If we have to put things off a bit longer, that just gives me more time to save money, make more improvements on the house before we sell it, and let the housing market over here hopefully recover more.

You can tell how nice an area is like to live in, by the breeds of dogs that are in the area. The government are aware that banned breeds are being bred and some London areas are now actively seizing banned breeds and banned breed types.

Heh - you might be able to for your own priorities, but I tend to look at things like litter, general upkeep, and whether or not people speak to you when you go out. My current  neighborhood would likely not meet with your approval, as most of my neighbors have adopted mutts from our local shelter. But I can go to almost any house on the street and use the phone or get a battery jump, and I've lived in more affluent neighborhoods where I couldn't say that. Won't be going to London either, but have seen a lot of big, goofy mutts around where the relatives live in the north.

For the last few years a new bill has been proposed to replace the DDA and that bill has Staffie owners and JRT owners, up in arms: on the dog forums these breed owners say that they feel the new law is aimed at their breeds. Dogs that attack other dogs or other animals are to be included in this new bill.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldbills/004/11004.1-4.html#j002
It is set to replace the DDA and will require dog owners to have control over their animals around people, dogs and other animals.

Now going through parliament, The Dog Control Bill http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/dogcontrolhl.html

Don't have an issue with people keeping control of their dogs; a responsible pet owner doesn't want a situation that puts his dog at risk. That means minding a skittish dog who's afraid of traffic as much as it means dealing with a child with poky fingers whose parents won't keep him away from your dog.

Also don't have an issue with leashes and muzzles for the same reason; if my dog is restrained, he's safer from idiots and other unforeseen problems. It amazes me that I can give people a simple statement like "don't pull my dog across the floor by his tail" or "don't dangle food in front of her then snatch it away like that", and have them smile at me and say "aw, don't be such a drag", and keep right on doing it.

I hope it works out for you!  I have a chow chow and feel your pain.  Luckily the UK doesn't have a chow chow problem, but Allstate won't insure my house if I have a chow chow because of their "vicious" reputation.  It's definitely frustrating when you know your pet is a sweetheart!