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Topic: UK: Brown resigns  (Read 9777 times)

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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2010, 11:03:20 AM »
If it were based solely on political similarities, it might have made more sense to have Labour and the Tories join up.

A lot of what the Conservatives talked about implementing (tighter immigration requirements, no dole for people who won't work, etc.) was implemented by Labour.  Of course, the Tory press won't give Labour credit for it and the leftist press will largely ignore it.

ETA:  I also don't think Clegg did this for power.  He's not stupid.  He knows what a Deputy PM does.

It's a shame that Labour's failures and election losses will be blamed on the Lib Dems.  Labour needs to regroup and I hope abandon their rightward/authoritarian swing:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

Yeah, I looked at that political compass, but for me when I was reading manifestos, I didn't find the Tories and Labour as close as Lib Dems and Labour.  And from talking to my friends who kind of think the way I do politically, they didn't seem to think so either.  But it may just be on the points we are most interested in. 

Also, I think it looks like he is doing it for a chance of power to stretch the Lib Dems legs so to speak not that he's going to get any.  It makes the Lib Dems look desperate for power.  I don't think he thinks he'll get any real power.  I was just saying how I think it looks, especially when watching the joint news conference. 


Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2010, 01:01:15 PM »
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 01:06:46 PM by Legs Akimbo »


Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2010, 01:07:22 PM »
That was an interesting article Legs Akimbo.  Thanks for sharing!


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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2010, 03:26:34 PM »
A funny new name for the new government (thought up by a clever coworker):  Eton Mess!  :)

I don't think that formal coalitions (one side or the other) were the only way.  Ideologically, I don't see that a Tory/Lib coalition is going to work.  The numbers weren't there for Labour/Lib, along with other problems in doing that.  I do think Clegg did it for a power play & in so doing has betrayed (IMO) a lot of his supporters.  Why couldn't Clegg have summoned up some integrity, and at least stood in a more powerful opposition (alongside, but not in coalition with, Labour - if joining with Labour was too much to bear) to a minority Tory government?

I am curious what are the various perspectives on how Labour has gone wrong?  I mean for some of you, the answer is probably just that 'they aren't Tories'.  On the other hand, some have said that Labour strayed too far from its socialist roots, but if you feel that way I don't understand how you could be happy about the present government arrangement - if New Labour was Tory-lite, the ConDems are going to be Tory-heavier.  I know a lot of Labour supporters aren't thrilled with the way a lot of things have gone, but then we are back to the lesser evil argument (and bearing in mind the Noam Chomsky quote: 'Choosing the lesser of two evils isn't a bad thing. The cliché makes it sound bad but it's a good thing. You get less evil.').

I was chatting with DH this morning before work & just saying how a lot of the stuff to be dealt with now (unemployment, credit crunch/global crisis, the wars, etc) would have happened anyway, no matter who was in power.  It's not like these problems grew up & exploded in a vacuum right here in Britain, courtesy of the Labour Party.  (Thatcher/Tories deregulated the banking industry, btw.)  And it's a convenient thing for the Tories/Lib Dems to point their fingers and say it's all Labour's fault.  Of course, we won't know, but I am certain that the Tories would have dealt with some of this stuff that happened in much the same way - possibly doing an even worse job of it, who knows?

Some of the stuff I'm hearing on the news today - they're going to spend more on the NHS, but first they need to cut NHS spending?  Also something about the university fees - I think the Tories want tuition fee increases, but the Libs have agreed to abstain from the vote either way?  That should please their student supporters.  Also, I agree with Internet Addict that it doesn't look like the Lib Dems got any really serious or heavyweight positions on the cabinet - those are all taken by Tories, not to mention the meaningless 'Deputy PM'.

Also is it just me, or is the British media looking and sounding more & more like Fox News all the time?  :-X  My word!  Sometimes I think the UK should give up all pretence of wanting to be America, and just become the 51st state.  ;)

It seemed there was something else I wanted to add to this ramble, but it has escaped me.  That's enough for us to be going on with in our setting the world to rights.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 04:06:33 PM by Mrs Robinson »
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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2010, 03:28:59 PM »

Also is it just me, or is the British media looking and sounding more & more like Fox News all the time?  :-X  My word!  Sometimes I think the UK should give up all pretence of wanting to be America, and just become the 51st state.  ;)



LOL I almost spit out my water on this one...Agreed it is a lot like Fox hahah!


Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2010, 04:31:25 PM »
A funny new name for the new government (thought up by a clever coworker):  Eton Mess!  :)

I don't think that formal coalitions (one side or the other) were the only way.  Ideologically, I don't see that a Tory/Lib coalition is going to work.  The numbers weren't there for Labour/Lib, along with other problems in doing that.  I do think Clegg did it for a power play & in so doing has betrayed (IMO) a lot of his supporters.  Why couldn't Clegg have summoned up some integrity, and at least stood in a more powerful opposition (alongside, but not in coalition with, Labour - if joining with Labour was too much to bear) to a minority Tory government?

If he did either of those things we would have seen an election this year.  The Tories have deep pockets.  Or rather, one set of very deep pockets that goes by the name Lord Ashcroft. 

We may very well see another election this year, but this was the strongest route against that.  Plus, this was a way for the Lib Dems to show that they believe in the possibilities of very different parties sharing the duty of forming a government.  The form of electoral reform that the Lib Dems support would often produce coalitions.  This is something that has been at the heart of the Liberal party for a very long time.  Claiming that progressives can't work with a significant minority that are "not progressive" (the Tories) sort of means that they think that coalitions only work when there is some sort of historic agreement on some issues that someone along the way decided were more important than the numerous ones they disagree on.

So, what do you think the outcome of an election where Labour and the Lib Dems were broke, the Lib Dems have conceded defeat on coalitions unless they are with Labour (or "not Tories") and have brought into question their very purpose in British politics.  Do you absolutely think that Labour would win?  And say they won, national politics would have devolved into some weird system just focused on keeping the Tories out of power in Whitehall.

PR is our chance to cut the Tories down to size.  Not eliminate.  Not make politics a one party system or accept the inevitable back and forth between the two bloated coalitions that are known as "Labour" and "Conservative Party".

I do wish that Lib Dems pushed harder for PR.  I have a feeling that there will be some squirming on the Tories' part if they don't agree to the referendum to be on PR and not AV.

I am curious what are the various perspectives on how Labour has gone wrong?  I mean for some of you, the answer is probably just that 'they aren't Tories'.  On the other hand, some have said that Labour strayed too far from its socialist roots, but if you feel that way I don't understand how you could be happy about the present government arrangement - if New Labour was Tory-lite, the ConDems are going to be Tory-heavier.  I know a lot of Labour supporters aren't thrilled with the way a lot of things have gone, but then we are back to the lesser evil argument (and bearing in mind the Noam Chomsky quote: 'Choosing the lesser of two evils isn't a bad thing. The cliché makes it sound bad but it's a good thing. You get less evil.').

I was chatting with DH this morning before work & just saying how a lot of the stuff to be dealt with now (unemployment, credit crunch/global crisis, the wars, etc) would have happened anyway, no matter who was in power.  It's not like these problems grew up & exploded in a vacuum right here in Britain, courtesy of the Labour Party.  (Thatcher/Tories deregulated the banking industry, btw.)  And it's a convenient thing for the Tories to point their fingers and say it's all Labour's fault.  Of course, we won't know, but I am certain that the Tories would have dealt with some of this stuff that happened in much the same way - possibly doing an even worse job of it, who knows?

I don't think that the current economic mess is solely Labour's fault any more than I think that the mess in the States is solely the Republicans' fault.  The deregulation, promotion of the culture of greed, and the failure to react didn't happen over night or just under one administration/government. What I did find objectionable about Labour is:

They made a huge mistake with allowing free immigration from the new countries joining the EU when they were one of only three countries to do so.  This was a colossal boneheaded thing to do. In order to "rectify" it, they went after non-EU immigration in an almost punitive way.  We still don't know what the full scope of the fallout will be because now the Tories get to implement their legislation.

In general Labour's become much more "populist".  You talk about the media being American-like here.  Sorry, I think you're wrong.  I think it's more right wing than American media.  It's just that probably a greater percentage of people here read a paper.  75% of the papers here are like reading The New York Post on a day when a liberal pissed in the editor's cornflakes.  10% tries to look a little more upmarket, but pretty much carry the same editorial stance.  People tend to read the papers that confirm what they think they already know.  There is no attempt at journalistic neutrality in the printed media here.  Even the "Independent" which was founded to be away from the filthy grasps of partisan politics isn't by any means neutral most of the time.  And didn't they endorse people in the past few elections (I may be wrong on that, but I thought they did).

If you run a government based on asking people to fill out questionnaires online, you're going to get dumb policies I'd say at least 85% of the time.

Then there's the Iraq war.  And I wonder how easily Bush could have pulled it off without Blair's help.  Add to that some of their rather scary impingements on civil rights (if that is the concern of the bourgeoisie, then I know what that makes me as I find some of it frightening).  You know they locked up immigrant kids in detention centres, right?

When cuts happen, I am sure people will claim it is the Nasty Party and Nasty Party Lite lining their chums' pockets.  Thing is, the cuts have to happen sometime under some government.  Maybe the Tories and the Lib Dems will do it wrong.  Maybe they will mess it up.  I am not enthused that we've ended up with the Tories wielding the axe simply because I question their priorities.  However, there would have been crying no matter who did it.

We sort of have to treat this like the problem it is, and stop being so partisan. 


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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2010, 04:32:35 PM »
As a Lib-Dem voter, I'm pleased. Well, as pleased as I can be given that my party only got 23% of the vote. There are 5 Lib-Dems sitting around that table today, and for me that's good news.

I don't like David Cameron, but I am fed up of people with enormous chips on their shoulders going on and on about him being posh. So what? I don't really see how that's a problem. Get over it, people.
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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2010, 04:40:02 PM »
I forgot to mention: Their commitment to electoral reform when it's politically expedient for them to be committed to it.  All other times (when they can actually do something about it), they ignore it. 



Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2010, 04:45:45 PM »
Also: If Labour takes for granted that they will get the bulk of the "not-Tory" leftist votes, what do you think they will do to attract the people who might consider voting Tory?

Just another symptom of a system that needs to be reformed.


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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2010, 05:04:03 PM »
A funny new name for the new government (thought up by a clever coworker):  Eton Mess!  :)


I had that up on my Facebook status last Thursday night as the results were coming in - "It looks like an Eton mess!"
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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2010, 05:13:23 PM »
The media is looking more like Fox News - well, I guess it is if you're watching Sky News with Adam Boulton and Kay Burley (check out the clips on Youtube, Burley's is amazing when she tells a Fair Votes protestor to "go home and watch Sky News"!)
The newspapers - well depends where you look - the Mail and Express have long been like that, but then the Times, Guardian and Independent give a far more rational viewpoint.
I am concerned though that Murdoch has done a deal with Cameron, they want OFCOM disbanding and they want the impartiality in TV news to be removed and they want controls over the BBC, that concerns me greatly. The BBC are a great news organisation, reknowed world wide, the fact that both Government and opposition complain about perceived bias suggests to me they have it right.
Murdoch wants to turn Sky News into a UK equivalent of Fox News, and what we saw from Boulton and Burley shows that.
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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2010, 05:16:04 PM »
Quote
I don't like David Cameron, but I am fed up of people with enormous chips on their shoulders going on and on about him being posh. So what? I don't really see how that's a problem. Get over it, people.

Amen, the inverse snobbery of people really gets my goat. So David Cameron went to Eton. Tony Blair went to Fettes, which is just as exclusive and expensive. Both are excellent schools and they received excellent educations. Both went to excellent universities. Personally, I want the people running the country to be well-educated, well-spoken, intelligent and informed. People from wealthy backgrounds can often afford to be better educated than their poorer counterparts, so it's not really that shocking that they are over-represented in Parliament and especially in the main positions of power. Big whoop-dee-do.
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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2010, 05:34:50 PM »
The media is looking more like Fox News - well, I guess it is if you're watching Sky News with Adam Boulton and Kay Burley (check out the clips on Youtube, Burley's is amazing when she tells a Fair Votes protestor to "go home and watch Sky News"!)
The newspapers - well depends where you look - the Mail and Express have long been like that, but then the Times, Guardian and Independent give a far more rational viewpoint.
I am concerned though that Murdoch has done a deal with Cameron, they want OFCOM disbanding and they want the impartiality in TV news to be removed and they want controls over the BBC, that concerns me greatly. The BBC are a great news organisation, reknowed world wide, the fact that both Government and opposition complain about perceived bias suggests to me they have it right.
Murdoch wants to turn Sky News into a UK equivalent of Fox News, and what we saw from Boulton and Burley shows that.

Tory/right wing populist rags: Mail, Express, Sun (although it was Labour, it still was conservative and ran "immigrants run amok" stories), and sometimes the Star, Metro (Mail), Evening Standard
More upmarket Tory rags: Telegraph, Times.  Well, at least the Times is stomachable.
Leftie rags: The Mirror...isn't there a communist tabloid too?
More upmarket Leftie rags: Independent, Guardian/Observer

The closest thing there is to an objective paper is The Times, and that's owned by Murdoch.  [Edit: I will admit that the Guardian and more so the Independent tries to incorporate more diverse viewpoints in their paper, I still read their straight stories with a pinch of salt and consider their bias.  It's not the same sort of bias of say The Mirror or the Mail or even the Telegraph].

I worry about OfCom too, but I hope that the Lib Dems would talk the Tories down.  As for Sky, yeah, it's Fox lite, but I don't know if you've seen Nick Robinson's coverage of the election/coalition negotiations/Cameron becoming PM.  He totally <3s David Cameron.  His bias is glaring, and that's the BBC!  Supposedly our neutral (and most of the time they at least come within striking distance of neutral) Beeb.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 05:42:14 PM by Legs Akimbo »


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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2010, 05:44:40 PM »


I worry about OfCom too, but I hope that the Lib Dems would talk the Tories down.  As for Sky, yeah, it's Fox lite, but I don't know if you've seen Nick Robinson's coverage of the election/coalition negotiations/Cameron becoming PM.  He totally <3s David Cameron.  His bias is glaring, and that's the BBC!  Supposedly our neutral (and most of the time they at least come within striking distance of neutral) Beeb.

I've been reading this about Nick Robinson, and as someone who has got most of my TV news from the BBC I've not noticed it.
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Re: UK: Brown resigns
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2010, 06:20:38 PM »
I've been reading this about Nick Robinson, and as someone who has got most of my TV news from the BBC I've not noticed it.

Me neither, Does anybody agree with me that Nick Robinson is a rather weird looking little bald speccy git?


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