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Topic: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'  (Read 6460 times)

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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2010, 06:04:22 PM »
UK society has progressed past the hunters and gathers stage and what is needed for survival in a developed, civilized society should encompass more then food, shelter, clothing and water.

I agree with this.  We can argue over the definition of "surviving" and whether or not that includes the internet and going on vacation, but I think our society (both American and British) should have higher goals than everyone merely surviving because they have enough to eat.

I think it'd be great if in addition to having food, clothing, shelter and water everyone did have access to the internet and the means to take a vacation now and again.  Obviously people won't die without the internet or experiencing the wider world, but their lives might be a little more interesting if they had them.


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2010, 06:42:47 PM »
I couldn't see the calculator either so I went to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation website and there was link to it there:

http://www.minimumincome.org.uk/


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2010, 06:51:10 PM »
I think it'd be great if in addition to having food, clothing, shelter and water everyone did have access to the internet and the means to take a vacation now and again.

I agree with this.  The reason I disagree with the article is because it says people who cannot afford things like internet access and holidays (as well as buying rounds of alcohol when you go out for special occasions and other ridiculous "necessities" that are included in the budget) are "struggling to pay for essentials".  I don't consider people who can't afford those type of things to be struggling.  I think we take a lot of luxuries for granted because we feel like they are essential.


Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2010, 09:15:35 PM »


IMO there is a big difference between what is needed for survival and what is needed to maintain an average lifestyle.

Of course there is a difference.  Technically, you don't need anything but food, a couple changes of clothes, and a place to shelter.  You don't need to shelter in your own living space.  You don't need privacy.  You don't need to wear clothes if the weather is hot enough.  You don't need heat unless it is very cold.  You don't need electric.  You don't need entertainment.

We aren't talking about the cost to live at survival levels because the cost would be minimal to just survive.

An average lifestyle would include easy access to information, on demand.  If dial-up were an economical option, that would be fine, but it's not in the UK and most of Europe.  Free wi-fi programs are a step into the right direction, but it would still mean that the basic equipment would have to be purchased or received as a gift or donation.

I don't think people are taking food for granted.  I think people are taking their own access to information for granted.  Go without for a couple months, and come back and post about how easy it was to get work done in libraries (after waiting a few hours for a space and paying for anything over an hour) and for your kids to get things done at school.  I am not talking about going without during a holiday in the country or whilst moving, but really going without even on things like mobiles.


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2010, 09:25:26 AM »
An average lifestyle would include easy access to information, on demand.  If dial-up were an economical option, that would be fine, but it's not in the UK and most of Europe.  Free wi-fi programs are a step into the right direction, but it would still mean that the basic equipment would have to be purchased or received as a gift or donation.

I don't think people are taking food for granted.  I think people are taking their own access to information for granted.  Go without for a couple months, and come back and post about how easy it was to get work done in libraries (after waiting a few hours for a space and paying for anything over an hour) and for your kids to get things done at school.  I am not talking about going without during a holiday in the country or whilst moving, but really going without even on things like mobiles.

Further, I think actually information access is indicative of one's relative power in society and to some degree, that may be related to economic class and education levels and so on. I deal all the time with people who are relatively disenfranchised from society, due to challenges in accessing information, due to income, environmental issues, health issues and so on. Poor / limited information access can really impact your physical and mental wellbeing.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 01:00:05 PM by mapleleafgirl72 »


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2010, 11:01:40 AM »
This article, as I infer it, is discussing poverty levels. Poverty is not the same as subsistence. Rather, it encompasses more than simply "won't die from malnutrition or exposure", it defines what a society feels is the minimum acceptable lifestyle for its citizens. Almost every first-world definition includes access to education and healthcare, for example, which would be considered outright luxuries in most third-world countries. You can assuredly survive on less than poverty-level wages, and many people do, but compassionate societies generally seek to bridge the gap with services or assistance, because it's felt people shouldn't have to endure such sacrifices.

As was pointed out, the Internet has became a pervasive part of modern society. I'm sure we all know its benefits and uses. Some countries are even defining it as a basic human right. Numerous schools require and assume that its students have unfettered access, many jobs are only listed or available online, and much of modern communication (business or personal) occurs over email. How viable is it for people to rely entirely on free Internet access at the library, while also doing everything else they need to be doing? What if you're a single mum? Do you take your kids along, when you need access for several hours, every day? Again, you can survive without the Internet, but its absence can only serve to perpetuate your poverty. I think it's well and truly obvious that it's more than just a luxury good.



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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2010, 12:07:16 PM »
If your library is even open.  Cambridge's was closed for almost 2 1/2 years for repairs. 


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2010, 01:12:19 PM »
Maybe I'm not coming across correctly.  It's not about computers and internet and the fact that people *should* have access to those things.  What I'm saying is, people who cannot afford to pay £5,200/yr for 'cultural and social participation' are not "struggling to pay for essentials".  They are struggling to pay for "things that it's nice and beneficial to have if you make enough money to afford them".  They are struggling to pay for "things that if we lived in a perfect world, everyone would have access to".  People who are starving on the street (in this country) are "struggling to pay for essentials".  It's about the wording and the implication that people who can't afford internet and holidays are poor. 


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2010, 01:27:23 PM »
Maybe I'm not coming across correctly.  It's not about computers and internet and the fact that people *should* have access to those things.  What I'm saying is, people who cannot afford to pay £5,200/yr for 'cultural and social participation' are not "struggling to pay for essentials".  They are struggling to pay for "things that it's nice and beneficial to have if you make enough money to afford them".  They are struggling to pay for "things that if we lived in a perfect world, everyone would have access to".  People who are starving on the street (in this country) are "struggling to pay for essentials".  It's about the wording and the implication that people who can't afford internet and holidays are poor. 

You're talking about absolute poverty, whereas others are looking at relative poverty: these definitions do not match or weigh / consider the same issues. Neither definition is right / wrong, just measuring different things. 

http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/social%20exclusion.shtml


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2010, 05:25:41 PM »
I can't imagine spending, much less HAVING, £5200 to spend on social stuff!! I pretty much never go out. Of course, nor do any of my friends now either since they are all married with kids. They don't hang out with the single, childless chick anymore (esp since bed time is 9:00  :-\\\\ )
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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2010, 06:57:48 PM »
Maybe I'm not coming across correctly.  It's not about computers and internet and the fact that people *should* have access to those things.  What I'm saying is, people who cannot afford to pay £5,200/yr for 'cultural and social participation' are not "struggling to pay for essentials".  They are struggling to pay for "things that it's nice and beneficial to have if you make enough money to afford them".  They are struggling to pay for "things that if we lived in a perfect world, everyone would have access to".  People who are starving on the street (in this country) are "struggling to pay for essentials".  It's about the wording and the implication that people who can't afford internet and holidays are poor. 

Yes. It's about the media spending more time discussing the disadvantages of not having direct internet access (and I agree that there are disadvantages) or of not being able to take a holiday than the disadvantages of suffering from malnutrition.

It's also about the fact that I know people who are on benefits yet take regular holidays  and seem to think that it is their right to do so.


Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2010, 07:38:27 PM »
So how long have you all gone without regular internet access in the past 5-10 years outside of holidays and moving house?

ETA:  Also, I agree about some of it being excessive.  I don't agree that internet access in places like the UK and US as being as a luxury.  Maybe not a bare necessity, but few things are.

When I lost nearly everything, I had to come up with priorities in paying bills.  Food bills came after a lot of things (like rent, utilities).  If you miss a few meals, you don't end up on the street.  If you miss a few meals or eat white bread toast for two weeks in a row, you don't have to sit in the dark, pay large deposits  and go through the hassle to get things turned back on.  Now I would have to reassess whether or not I'd ever want to go through that again or if I would survive the really bad, low quality food.

Food isn't the absolute first thing people who are having trouble paying bills worry about.  Keeping their home and then their standard of living is usually the first of their priorities.  In places where starvation is a much closer threat, this might be different, but in most Western countries, it's not.

Personally, my priorities would be: Rent/mortgage, electric (although in the UK I might go on a key meter), heat, internet, cat food...then everything else including food.  I would shut off my cable and even my landline before I shut off my internet.  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 07:45:33 PM by Legs Akimbo »


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2010, 11:10:43 PM »
So how long have you all gone without regular internet access in the past 5-10 years outside of holidays and moving house?

I bought my first computer in March of 2008.  Didn't get internet access until June of 2009.  The only reason I got it then was so I could keep in touch with DH easier (I got tired of driving to my parent's house to use theirs to talk to him).  Somehow managed 6 years of college (including a few online classes) to get my Masters without.  I know that probably makes me an exception...but the fact that I managed and never felt under-priviledged (just inconvenienced) is why I don't view having it in the home as essential.


Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2010, 11:38:57 PM »
Well, that is impressive.  When I was without, I did feel underprivileged as well as cut off.

It sounds like you had a support system that included internet access, which is something I didn't have.


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Re: £27K income needed for UK life's 'basics'
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2010, 07:22:03 PM »
Do they actually use this calculation when they process visa applications?


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