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Topic: Friends who are anti-American?  (Read 2871 times)

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Friends who are anti-American?
« on: October 24, 2010, 12:34:27 AM »
Of course there are many levels to anti-Americanism, from dislike of American foreign policy to absolute hate of all things American, including people. This question was inspired by yet another talk about America recently...

Anyway, say you meet someone and you seem to get on fairly well. Let's say that you two have a conversation and somehow America gets brought up, probably when talking about your roots, and say this person has obvious anti-American sentiment. Is it a deal breaker between you two as friends? Obviously a lot of it can be laughed off, however, is there a line for what you will tolerate and won't tolerate?

The person I was speaking with was a bit rude about it and seemed a bit close-minded. Somehow we got on the discussion of where I was from, he asked after all, and then he began to list all the things he thought was wrong with the US. For one, he refused to listen when I argued against the fact that he believed that America and Canada 'were practically the same place.' Yes, we have some similarities in culture and we do like to joke about it, however we have completely different histories, differences in culture, differences in systems, etc.

Another annoying comment of his was how he believed that the South-West of the US was 'practically the same as Mexico.'  ??? While both sides have drawn from one another, there is still vast differences in culture. In fact, in Texas for example, there has been the creation of Tex-Mex culture which is obviously different from American culture and Mexican culture.

He also claimed that Americans are extremely money-driven, in his words, 'more so than anywhere else which means there's no warmth in Americans', though partially true, this could be said for every where else. After all, he was talking to a uni cash cow :P

Again, he also claimed that there is a lack of warmth in all Americans. I tried to explain to him that the experiences you face from one side of the country to the next will be different. For example, using experiences in Massachusetts to judge the rest of the nation is unfair. You wouldn't visit the South-West of England and expect the same things in the North-East of Scotland. I asked him thrice about where he had been in the US and completely dodged the question. He also said that such coldness in people isn't found in Europe.  ???

Also, he was bothered how Americans don't have passports. To this, I explained how up until a few years ago, Americans only needed an id card to travel between Canada and Mexico. Also that individual states have their own culture and with a place so massive as the US, one doesn't necessarily have to own a passport to try something different. I also said look at how Britons get their passport but to only travel to Spain and France. By the way, here is where he said that 'surely there isn't much differences in culture between the US, Canada, and Mexico.' Oh yes, because people travel to Ibiza for culture  ::)

Perhaps this sounds too ranty for Expat life, but I suppose that in this case, my first impression of this person was marred by his lack of understanding. Though it happens a lot, I don't like meeting someone and then ten minutes later be expected to be the audience of their monologue about things they dislike about the states. I often feel like a charity case for people to enlighten or a punching bag for people to take out their frustration about US foreign policy. I certainly can't remember the last time I made someone sit through my list about things I dislike about their respective country. If I calmly counter their statements, it makes them believe that I'm a "US patriot, my country can do no wrong!" However, by opposing their position, I can generally tell if they're a bandwagoner or if they have done their research.

To get back to the question, though his comments weren't very anti-American (I didn't list everything that he said) but this post was inspired by them. Is there a line between things you will and will not tolerate about what people say? And is or has it been a deal breaker between you and friends?
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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2010, 01:00:26 AM »
Of course there are many levels to anti-Americanism, from dislike of American foreign policy to absolute hate of all things American, including people. This question was inspired by yet another talk about America recently...

Anyway, say you meet someone and you seem to get on fairly well. Let's say that you two have a conversation and somehow America gets brought up, probably when talking about your roots, and say this person has obvious anti-American sentiment. Is it a deal breaker between you two as friends? Obviously a lot of it can be laughed off, however, is there a line for what you will tolerate and won't tolerate?

The person I was speaking with was a bit rude about it and seemed a bit close-minded. S
To get back to the question, though his comments weren't very anti-American (I didn't list everything that he said) but this post was inspired by them. Is there a line between things you will and will not tolerate about what people say? And is or has it been a deal breaker between you and friends?

1. Wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker, I'm quite deprecating about England really, if I feel the comments are fair I would laugh/joke about them. I've met some people on here who are quite anti-British, but I let it slide up to a certain point, especially if it's rooted in homesickness.

2. Rude and close-minded IS a deal breaker for me. You also say he didn't listen to you generally and wasn't listening to your counter arguments, all of this makes me believe that his anti-americanism is secondary to him being a rude twat, and I'm not friends with rude twats :)

3. Yes I'm quite bad about not being friends with people who I feel cross certain lines. Like for instance, I'm mixed race but not everyone realises it right away as I look Caucasian. Any hint at racism and I'm outta there, I just don't want to hear it or be around that kind of attitude. I am also not a fan of Polish bashing which has become so freaking unbearably common place recently, I have not a single thing against Eastern Europeans and I don't want to hear daily mail foreigners taking our job stuff. For me it's the spirit of things, some of my close American friends will make Posh British, afternoon tea jokes which is fine, but if they with a bad intent started saying sweeping generalisations which were incorrect and mean spirited, then I would have an issue.

:)

Sorry you had to go through that!




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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2010, 01:13:38 AM »
For me, personally, the deal-breaker on any issue is when the person: a) refuses to listen to an alternate point of view, b) makes comments that I find personally hurtful/offensive, and c) won't leave the subject alone.

I have certain family, friends and acquaintances who have wildly different opinions from me on subjects that we both care deeply about.  We've talked about them.  We've argued about them.  We're never, ever, ever going to see eye-to-eye.  So we simply ignore those topics.  We find other things to do or discuss.  

The only situation in which I wouldn't be able to simply set differences aside would be if that person's opinions caused them to take overt actions that I found objectionable.  For example, if a friend is rabidly pro-life, we can agree not to discuss the subject.  But if s/he makes a habit of harassing women outside clinics, then it's a deal-breaker, regardless of whether or not s/he discusses it with me.

So, if you otherwise enjoy spending time with this person, and if you can both agree simply not to discuss the subject of the U.S./Americans (or, wonder of wonders, if he can agree to listen more openly to your p.o.v.), then I see no reason why you shouldn't spend time with him.  Who knows?  After knowing you a while, he may come to adjust his own views.  But, if he insists on picking at the subject, or if he treats you or others rudely because of his views, then I'd ditch him.



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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2010, 01:32:45 AM »
I can't imagine I'd be entertaining the idea of being friends with someone who dismissed me for my country of origin. Then again, I'm far from being the most patriotic of all Americans and agree with people's criticisms most of the time. That guy sounded just plain ignorant. And cold..he's obviously never spent time in Scandinavia or Switzerland or Germany, where the outward face is very cold and reserved.


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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 07:24:02 AM »
I agree with most (if not all) of the points expressed so far.  I'd never be friends with someone who made such gross generalizations and didn't see why that was just ignorant and rude.



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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 10:43:16 AM »
Honestly, he sounds like an ignorant blowhard with no interest in actual fact.  That alone would probably not encourage a lasting friendship -- no matter the topic at hand.  I am annoyed by people who feel the need to aggressively inform me of The Facts even if I agree with their position.   :P


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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 10:51:20 AM »
I'm not sure why you want him as a friend either! Even if his comments weren't specifically anti-American, he just sounds like a closed-minded blowhard to me.
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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2010, 11:41:36 AM »
I agree with everyone about this particular person.  It's no use trying to reason with people whose ideas are fixed, and it sounds as though his are.  However, on the topic of anti-Americanism in general, I am more tolerant.  Honestly, with the way things have been going in the past few years, I think anyone not from the US who isn't at least a little bit anti-American hasn't been paying attention.  We have steamrolled other countries into a pointless war, refused to honour international agreements on climate change, and twice elected a president whose disdain for the rest of the world couldn't have been more apparent, all whilst spreading our own culture far and wide.  Now we as Americans know how diverse the US is and how many people didn't support Bush or the war, and that not everyone is ignorant or obsessively religious, but like it or not, that is the image we have presented, and I think people from other countries can be forgiven for thinking ill of us.  I sometimes think of myself as a sort of unofficial ambassador for the US, and whenever possible try to help people understand what the US and Americans are really like.  Most people are really receptive and interested, and the ones who aren't are not likely to change their opinions no matter what.  So I'd say that this particular guy may not be worth your time, but I don't think you necessarily need to draw a line in the sand and say "Everyone who thinks X, Y, and Z about the US cannot be my friend."  It may be that some people have just got the wrong impression, and all they need is a conversation with a nice, intelligent, informed American to show them how wrong they've been :)
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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2010, 01:39:02 PM »
If someone wanted to talk about various things like foreign policy and how the American government interacted with the rest of the world, I might be up for that discussion. If someone just wanted to tell me what's wrong with my country of origin then they will find themselves without an audience in seconds flat. Discourse is one thing. Lecturing is another. I'm not interested in anyone unable or unwilling to look at individuals over nationality.
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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2010, 02:50:06 PM »
I understand why someone might make generalizations about the US.  However, someone who clings to those generalizations as some sort of fact, despite meeting Americans who clearly aren't like that?  I can't respect that, I'm sorry.  It shows a closed mind, and they're likely prone to all kinds of sweeping Daily Mail generalizations I don't agree with.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it annoys me when I see Americans overseas trashing Americans, making the exact same generalizations foreigners might make, just to make themselves look special.  Like hey, everyone back home is so [insert cliche here] but I am a unique snowflake who is intelligent and worldly and amusing and watch me stand on my head and quote Shakespeare!  How awesome am I!  How useless are all other Americans by comparison!  They're all home watching Fox News and sending off for copies of Obama's birth certificate!

I've been overseas (in various countries) for a long time now, and I have run the gamut of feelings towards being American.  Even when I feel shame, such as during the Abu Graib scandal, I don't feel that it reflects on me as a person.  And if someone can't understand that there is a difference between the actions of a government and the actions of an individual, then perhaps I don't need to be friends with them.  American or otherwise.

I've heard all manner of comments about the intelligence, or lack thereof, of Americans, and I admit I find it confusing at times.  It's as if I'd met some Vicki Pollards on holiday and decided to judge all of England on the basis of that.  My friends back home are not a bunch of idiots.  They're reasonably well-read on world news, not screamingly conservative or bible thumpers, and they're amusing.  Several of them didn't have passports until they needed one to go to the Caribbean.  That doesn't make them stupid, that just means they either don't have the money to travel further, or just aren't inclined to do so.  

I'll shut up.  It's a frustrating topic.  :)  I hope you keep this person at arm's distance, OP!

*edited* to add, I don't think that being conservative means you're unintelligent.   :-\\\\  I realize my sentence makes it look that way.  However, it is the generalization I hear the most, and let's face it, even our Democrats back home are conservative compared with the left-wing here in the UK. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:53:28 PM by cakewench »


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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2010, 03:22:38 PM »
I've not usually been cornered into a conversation where someone is totally just bashing American culture and things like that where it wasn't just a "laugh it off" situation, but the one or two times something like that happened when I felt uncomfortable, I just kind of raised an eyebrow, gave a clipped response, and just didn't give them anything else to work with.  ::)


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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2010, 05:10:28 PM »
...

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it annoys me when I see Americans overseas trashing Americans, making the exact same generalizations foreigners might make, just to make themselves look special.  Like hey, everyone back home is so [insert cliche here] but I am a unique snowflake who is intelligent and worldly and amusing and watch me stand on my head and quote Shakespeare!  How awesome am I!  How useless are all other Americans by comparison!  They're all home watching Fox News and sending off for copies of Obama's birth certificate!

...

I actually find that kind of offensive. You've just done what you accuse others of doing with their (allegedly) reprehensible behavior. 


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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2010, 05:31:03 PM »
You've just done what you accuse others of doing with their (allegedly) reprehensible behavior. 

I'm not sure how.  I don't think cakewench was in any way implying that all other Americans she's met abroad are like that.  But a few are.  I've known a few like that myself.  And yes, they're kind of annoying.


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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2010, 05:36:46 PM »
I'm not sure how.  I don't think cakewench was in any way implying that all other Americans she's met abroad are like that.  But a few are.  I've known a few like that myself.  And yes, they're kind of annoying.

Ugh, I traveled with a friend who was like that while we were abroad.  Not so much saying she was special and different, but mostly going on about how she hated people knowing that we were American and didn't want to be classed as that.  I refuse to be ashamed because I am American, hopefully people will get to know me and judge me on my behavior and actions.
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Re: Friends who are anti-American?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2010, 05:38:13 PM »
I actually find that kind of offensive. You've just done what you accuse others of doing with their (allegedly) reprehensible behavior. 

hm.  Because I've made a generalization about people who generalize?  Yes, I suppose I did.  I'm afraid I have to stand by my example, though.  I have just heard/read it too many times.  It offends me (as I AM an American and that person is clearly saying that all other Americans are stupid) and it offends me on behalf of my friends back home (who are very open-minded and generally everything that person is claiming to be.  Even if they don't live overseas).  

I have sat at a table and listened to an American at the other end of the table (she didn't know I was American) telling everyone how stupid Americans are.  Why should I not be offended?  We aren't stupid.  Oh, wait, she just meant all Americans who weren't currently sitting at the table!  Oh that's alright then.  

Do I get the point that there are vast quantities of closed-minded people in America?  Yes.  I understand.  But is it fair to paint the entire population as such?  Go ahead, if you like.  I just happen to think there are huge variations in the various regions of the US (say, stereotypical small town in XYZ bible belt state versus San Francisco) it's awfully presumptuous to say all Americans are like XYZ or all Americans are like SF.  


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