US: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in Arizona

Although my opinion of Sarah Palin makes it hard to do so, I agree.  I don't think you can blame movies or video games or heavy metal music when some lunatic goes on a crime spree; you can't blame politicians, either.

Nevermind that politicians (especially right-leaning ones) are quite happy to blame video games and heavy metal.

As you say, plenty of liberals blame rock music too.  Tipper Gore started the whole labeling of albums thing.

It is not a liberal or conservative issue, but a politican how to get votes issue. 

I would like a nice discourse, but do I think it is going to come from Palin and her supporters?  No. 

It needs to come from news people ignoring her.  Most people in the US don't support her, most people get on with life living next to their neighbours whether they agree with their views on politics or healthcare. 

She should have continued to not say a thing about it and left it at giving her condolences to the victims and their families.  Now, she's made it about her, yet again, by responding to the hype and has essentially added fuel to the fire.  The woman has no tact or grace.

Have they ruled out this guy being influenced by the "sovereign people" conspiracy nutters?  It seemed to me when his postings were made public he definitely had their flavour.  I suppose if he were, that would satisfy both sides.

I am glad Obama didn't say that he was a "sick" or "mentally ill" individual.  While he probably did it to avoid helping an insanity/incompetency defence, just being mentally ill doesn't explain when people go off the deep end.  There's only a slight increase in violent tendencies in the mentally ill, and they are much more likely to be the victim of violent crime than to be the perpetrators.  I just hope that out of this doesn't come more aggressive commitment policies in the individual states rather than an encouragement to fund treatment and parity.  You'd be more justified in locking people up when they begin substance abuse than to make reactionary laws about imprisoning the mentally ill (as substance abuse contributes much more to the likelyhood that someone would commit violent crimes than becoming mentally ill does).  Sure, civil commitment has a place at times, but it's usually to protect the patient.  Access to treatment is more of an issue with non-compliance (but of course it's not the only one).  In addition to this, Arizona is a pretty easy place to get someone committed.  This is where the sheriff (the dude who was saying AZ was the Mecca for right wingers) was probably out of line to act like his hands are tied about the mentally ill.  Supposedly, it only takes a second party to claim that the person was talking in a way that indicated they were having delusions to have them committed.  I am not sure what more power the sheriff feels he needs to do his job.  Sometimes --it happens.  You can't make a law to prevent every instance. 

I just hate how reactionary people get about situations like this and they go on to pass laws that in the long run don't really prevent things from happening.

Nevermind that politicians (especially right-leaning ones) are quite happy to blame video games and heavy metal.

Yes, they've been doing that here in this case as well.  Basically, dragging out all the tired stereotypes they used after Columbine.  CNN had a whole interview with some girl who knew him as a kid, and according to this girl, halfway through high school he...*gasp*...turned 'goth.'

By which she seems to mean he wore a lot of dark, baggy clothes and smoked a lot of weed.

Are you f'ing kidding?  That's the best they could do?  'Goth?'

*facepalm*

While I abhor Palin... and pretty much everything she says and does (Blood Libel?! Really Sarah?! We can see the teleprompter in your glasses- but come on! Does nobody on her staff use Google!?) and I don't believe it is right to take any of the blame from the shoulders of the criminal himself- he is the one responsible for his actions.
I remember when columbine happened and a lot of the media started blaming rock music- and Marilyn Manson directly.

This clip does drop the F bomb...
Marilyn Manson - Bowling For Columbine

I think his last statement is profound- Moore asks what he would say to the shooters and his response is that he wouldn't say anything- he would listen, because that's what nobody else did.

I think its relevent because while Sarah Palin and others made some regretable remarks- they are in a position of power- they are elected officials and Manson is an entertainer. They should be held to a higher standard. Politicians have become entertainers and not leaders. (Palin even left office because she could make more money with the books, shows, etc.)  Manson, while having the shock rock aspect, is a very intelligent and nonviolent person. Palin is just ignorant.

The shooter still isn't talking so we don't know what his influences and/or reasoning was- and sometimes crazy is just crazy. Sometimes there is no reason, and that is hard to understand.

I heard Gifford has opened her eyes... great news! My brother has some severe head trauma and ended up in a position like hers- hopefully she will have a recovery like my brother and be okay even with odds stacked against her.

Although my opinion of Sarah Palin makes it hard to do so, I agree.  I don't think you can blame movies or video games or heavy metal music when some lunatic goes on a crime spree; you can't blame politicians, either.

That said, it would've been impressive if Palin had supported a change to a more civil tone in politics, but she stuck to the script instead, which is disappointing, but not surprising.

I'm not blaming politicians, I'm blaming the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh with their hate speech. How can they say that it can't influence someone to pick up a gun and kill, when they spread fear that the country is being taken over by Marxists, that "we need to take back our country from progressives" etc....of course that can influence someone who is unhinged. It is entirely different to a song by Judas Priest or playing on Grand Theft Auto.

I thought the moderator said we were to stay away from politics?

Hi - I'm the OP, but I'm not the moderator here coz it's not my section.

As the OP, I requested that people try to stick to news & condolences.  My intention being if we are going to get into a further debate-y dialogue on here, then that probably needs to take place on Pettifog.

Thus far, I have not seen any particularly 'hot' commentary here - nothing apart from what is already being covered in the news anyway.

The incident is still just as horrible & shocking, and I am sure that everyone's condolences go out to the victims in this tragedy.  Some discussion of the ongoing coverage and surrounding issues is inevitable, I do think.  Just politely asking peeps to go to Pettifog if the debate is going to turn more passionate.

Thanks! 

PS - Thank you, Legs Akimbo, for the commentary here & on FB regarding access to treatment & policy concerning the mentally ill in the US.

Mod stepping in to say that at the moment I concur with Mrs. R.

I don't think anyone thus far is trying to draw a casual link between conservative pundits and some mentally ill person.  People do tend to need to place blame on someone or something.  It's even more so in cases like the VT massacre where the "cause" is deceased.  

That said societal mores and beliefs, which may seem insensitive and harsh or wrong to one side, can take on odd and new meanings in the hands of a person with mental disabilities.

I think conversations are good so long as no one places the real blame on what happened on anyone other than the person with the gun.

That said if someone wants to have a down and out (still respectful) debate about conservative pundits Pettifog is a better place for it.

Thank you, VNP. 

I just had the opportunity, just now, to watch Obama's speech in its entirety.

Very moving, and I hope - thought-provoking & inspiring, for all of us as a nation.  I hope that we can live up to his calls to honour these victims - those deceased and those still living.