Dale Farms

Since I am still in the US and just now really seeing all the info on this situation I am trying to understand everything. My main question is why is it if the courts said that they can not be there are they fighting and rioting and causing such destruction that is going on?

Also were these people such an ummm inconvenience that they couldn't be allowed to stay on the farms?


I am at work now and trying to research the background of this situation so i can fully understand everything that has taken place until now.

If I'm not mistaken, it's only half of Dale Farm that's in question??  The part in the green belt.  I think it goes: the travelers purchased the property knowing only half could be built on- and they still built on it without planning permission. So after 10 years the council finally got their judgement and is having the property removed which then makes them homeless.  However I did hear the council offered them housing elsewhere and they denied it....  That's all I really know from bits on the TV and what I've heard from In-laws..

I must say though, I have found a massive amount of racism towards travelers here. It amazes me the way people talk about them! 

"Dale Farm" is the name of the site the travellers have been living on since the 1970s... it's not a farm or farms, it's just an area of land in Essex next to a scrapyard where they have decided to set up home (http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00117/crayshill_117072a.jpg).

The problem with it is that while some of the residents are living there legally (they got planning permission from the local council to build on the site), some of the land is protected Green Belt land and the travellers who built their homes there did so illegally without getting planning permission from the council.

From what I can tell, the residents are rioting/protesting because the High Court has determined that as illegal residents they can no longer live there and so the police have come to evict them all from the site. The thing is that for the travellers, Dale Farm is their home and their life and they don't feel they should have to leave.

Thanks Ksand.. I knew it was something along those lines.  I feel bad for them actually- I keep thinking of the poor kids that had nothing to do with this and how scary it must be to be uprooted and the rioting.  I wouldn't wish eviction on my worst enemy. 

Also question then....All these people and illegal buildings obviously aren't paying taxes right?

In a way its like taking a piece of land you don't own and just building on it, Squatters rights? Still it isn't right - I believe people tried to pull a fast one and the government stood up and said, we said no - this is greenbelt, we cant just let it go.

I guess you gave to draw the line somewhere.

On one news sitehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8782163/Dale-Farm-travellers-still-receiving-benefits-on-illegal-site.html] [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8782163/Dale-Farm-travellers-still-receiving-benefits-on-illegal-site.html[/url] Rent and council tax rebates are being paid to around 25 of the "households" on Dale Farm, Basildon Council has confirmed.

I don't know who to "side" with in this scenario.  The Travellers who are being evicted have been on the land illegally and they have known it all along.  This is not something that has been sprung on them last month based on some archaic law that is being used to discriminate against them.  The council has been doing everything legally and by the book for 10 years.  It seems to me that the Travellers have made their beds and I don't think they can claim any moral superiority.  What they did in settling on that land was illegal, and they are being legally evicted.  There are plenty of instances of middle class home owners who have had to pull down home extensions or sheds because they did not get proper council planning permission, so I don't think this situation is without precedent.

That being said, in ten years, surely the council could have come to some kind of solution that would not have cost taxpayers millions of pounds and resulted in such a violent resolution.  Even if the council has done every thing properly and legally, it still smacks of bullying.

I feel bad for them because part of what caused them to settle there were laws that changed under Thatcher and later gov'ts that ended some ability to travel.  Like making it illegal to sleep in lay-bys. 

However, it is illegal.   They were offered other accommodation by the council and they said no because it didn't allow them to stay together.  I feel bad about that, but too bad.  If you want the gov't to provide you with a place to live you don't get to complain as long as it is up to code/big enough for your family.  You take it or you figure out what you are going to do on your own.

I would love to live in the centre of Cambridge.  It would be convenient for my job, but if I needed a council house I wouldn't demand one on Bridge St.

thanks for explaining... while i wouldn't want anyone kicked out of their homes if they did things in the wrong manner then yes they should go...and to be offered housing of any form could had helped them while they looked into other options.

I suppose I am missing the point of them still calling themselves 'Travellers' if they are settling down and staying put. It all looks to me (and I apologize if I seem racist because I am not intending to be) like they are merely doing this to avoid paying taxes. Sure, if you wish to be a Traveller and travel, it sounds like an exotic, exciting way of life to me. Getting out and seeing the world instead of staying in one place would be educational. But saying you are a traveller and squatting somewhere or getting permission for some to settle and others move in, yet still not have to pay the same taxes as everyone else just isn't what it was all supposed to be about.

I can't speak for how they all are, but there is a group locally, about 1/2 mile from us and they took over a parking lot. They live there tax free, no one can park there, yet they shout obscenities at people walking by and the kids/teens run like wild animals through the surrounding streets and the parents just don't care. The twenty and thirty something guys will get drunk and walk the surrounding area shouting obscenities at people, going out of their way to be as obnoxious as they can. It seems to me they want to make up their own rules about life and not have to abide by the same ones other people do.

Again, I'm not racist, and I don't 'hate' them. I just haven't had a single positive experience with any of them living in the local area.

I suppose I am missing the point of them still calling themselves 'Travellers' if they are settling down and staying put. It all looks to me (and I apologize if I seem racist because I am not intending to be) like they are merely doing this to avoid paying taxes. Sure, if you wish to be a Traveller and travel, it sounds like an exotic, exciting way of life to me. Getting out and seeing the world instead of staying in one place would be educational. But saying you are a traveller and squatting somewhere or getting permission for some to settle and others move in, yet still not have to pay the same taxes as everyone else just isn't what it was all supposed to be about.

You can read more about Travellers and their way of life in this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15020118 . It addresses the reasons why they decide to settle in one place.

Again, I'm not racist, and I don't 'hate' them. I just haven't had a single positive experience with any of them living in the local area.

Same here - there are a couple of traveller sites near where I grew up and some of them would come into the store I used to work in. They were generally pretty rude and bad-mannered: pushing in front of customers waiting in the queue, demanding to be sold items rather than asking politely (no 'please' or 'thank you', just 'give me some of that'), shouting across the store to each other etc.. I didn't want to judge them, but it was hard not to feel a bit on edge whenever they came into the store.

Well, some of them have come to my area.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Cambridge/Travellers-caravans-at-City-ground-19102011.htm

Well, some of them have come to my area.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Cambridge/Travellers-caravans-at-City-ground-19102011.htm

Well, they were bound to go somewhere else and do the same thing for another 10 years until they were evicted again. I don't think this situation was really handled properly and I don't think it will solve any problems for anyone.  I felt really sorry for the elderly people who didn't want to leave their homes. I agree they should be paying taxes like everyone else, but they really should have done something about this long ago instead of waiting 10 years to evict them.

It's not race, it's behavior.

There are Irish travelers and Gypsies -- who I suppose can lay claim to an amount of history and tradition -- and then there are people of no particular race or fixed abode who will pull a van into an out-of-the-way car park, take up residence and refuse to be shifted.

The latter wrap themselves in the mantle of "Travelers" and are the very devil to get rid of legally, even if it's your land. In addition to being off the grid (in terms of their sending kids to school, paying rent or making any other tax contributions), they have the reputation as prolific thieves. Walking away with sheep, horses, engines off the fishing boats, anything they can tear off of our out of historic churches.

My neighbors out here in the country -- most of whom are educated people who would be horrified to be considered racists of any kind -- will tell story after story of their bicycles, working dogs, farm equipment and chickens disappearing one by one after 'Travelers' move in nearby. Often enough, even when they've been caught in the act, the police just shrug.

I hear many names for them out here in the boonies, none of which I dare repeat, being a foreigner myself and not understanding the hierarchy of offensiveness. Opinion is unanimous.

I know a couple of Irish, and they are OK guys. This whole thing has a bit of a District 6 feel to it. I just hate to see poor folk being evicted.

poor folk?