Alert: Rule Changes

@Rebbecajo-I wonder if part of the comparative simplicity of the US process is because the benefits system is a lot less generous in the US than it is in the UK?

FWIW you are about the third person lately I've heard say the UK>US visa path is a lot simpler to navigate than the US>UK path.

I wouldn't say the US system is simplistic at all.  There is plenty of wiggle room for consular officers abroad and adjudicating officers stateside to question a case.  The words "totality of circumstance" are directly from the Field Adjudicator's Manual and they exist for a reason. 

The financial criteria for sponsorship of an alien, however, are clear cut and well defined.  Mostly because the sponsor (by signing the affidavit of support) enters into a contract with the US Government.  The sponsor pledges that the alien will not become a public charge.  The duration of the contract is until the alien either earns 40 quarters of work in the US; until the alien naturalizes; or until they die, whichever comes first.  Should the alien access benefits during this time, the government reserves the right to sue the sponsor for the amount of benefits used.

Contract law requires the parties to each pledge something to other.  The US government promises to admit the alien - the sponsor promises they will be responsible for the alien.  Because it's a contract, there has to be a clear-cut line where financial responsibility begins.  In the US we have the Poverty Guideline (no such official statistic is comparable in the UK) so that is the "line of demarcation", so to speak. 

The Field Adjudicator's Manual speaks to those making the decisions about other forms of income, such as child support, savings in lieu of income, etc.  It's one of the places in US immigration where the guidelines are VERY clearly defined.

I was referring to the differences between the way the information is laid out for applicants. In the past week I've read posts from several successful applicants to both countries say the way the needed information is presented on the US end is much easier to navigate.

From Rebbecajo:

I wouldn't say the US system is simplistic at all.  There is plenty of wiggle room for consular officers abroad and adjudicating officers stateside to question a case.  The words "totality of circumstance" are directly from the Field Adjudicator's Manual and they exist for a reason.

I have to giggle a little-I'm a retired bureaucrat (stats), and our branch had standard issue to new employees of binders filled will bullet lists with sidebars-by the time I left I needed a 12' space to hold all my reference material. But retrieving information in even the most complex cases took less than ten minutes. I strongly suspect from comments made by applicants that a huge part of that is the organisational presentation of pertinent information. We all had our Tuesday morning routine of filing the latest addendums, lol! And to be frank, our results were tracked by a computer. A growing set of mistakes made indicated we weren't keeping up and I saw people walked out of the building if a pattern developed.

OTOH, the UKBA site is a blinkin' maze. No, I think the word I'm looking for is labyrinth. A maze is too simple a word to use to describe it. How the agents manage even as well as they do is amazing really.

I've just read too many posts from people that applying TO the US is a lot less complicated because the information re applying to the US is so easy to find and comprehend.

And I read that independent report from the inspector that it appears UKBA NYC is not sharing info with applicants that the applicant needs to present a substantive application-yet denying the application due to the non-submittal of documents the applicant didn't know were needed.

Not a complaint made going the other direction, and a big part of that has got to be the way the agents have pertinent info presented to them. I refuse to believe the agents are willfully obstructive.

However, on a bit of a different but connected angle:

I read at another expat site where the focus in the UK sub-forum is unfortunately solely visa application oriented-srs'ly, there is far more to expat life than the visa-but the posts are very interesting for many reasons.

Lately I'm seeing a lot of posts from people who believed from the UKBA guidelines for the 'spouse' visa app that A-couples married 4+ years abroad could expect an endorsement of KOL REQ on a successful app, and B-that they didn't need to ask for it, the UKBA ECO had the discretionary power to grant it more or less automatically if the criteria was met.

However, when they have received their successful visa vignette, the KOL REQ endorsement hasn't always been there. The applicants are clear that they met the criteria, and the thought is that the UKBA is 'pre-applying' the proposed changes as though the changes had been debated, accepted, and implemented.

As for myself, as I traversed the labyrinth I built up such a myriad of bookmarks that I finally had to spend fully eight hours organising the blasted things into a folder so I could find my way back to information I had to have to make a substantive application.

I'm not saying it is just, I'm just saying what they say.  There is nothing to stop you from going to the other country. 

As for UK Border Force, I wouldn't put much stock into a tv show.  There could be plenty of other issues behind the scenes that they don't discuss on the show.

Yes, there is.  A lack of a visa!  It would tear a family apart either way.  It's a lot easier to argue this approach before the family are settled.

2ndLife -

I'm happy I was able to make you giggle.  

I've been studying US immigration for over 7 years.  The intent of my post was to try and explain one aspect of immigration to the US - the financial/sponsorship part.  I did so because that seems to be the part of upcoming changes to the UK system which worries most people.  This is only relevant, IMO, because UKBA has couched much of its research based upon their interpretation of other countries systems.  I have read the UKBA consultation on Family Migration and I can assure you they picked, chose and misrepresented some facts of the US system.  

It may well be that the instructions for a US visa are more clear than a visa to Great Britain.  I can't honestly say because I've only filed for my husband's visa to the US.  I've no personal experience with UKBA.  My experience though is many people find our system quite difficult, mostly for the obscurity of decisions which are often cloaked behind international security or a judgment of immigration fraud.  You may not care to call it "willful obstruction", but there is many a couple denied life in the US because of an officer's perceptions.

I can tell you that the Field Adjudicator's Manual I referenced above is an important collection of memos used by immigration officers.  I'm not sure how that compares to the bureaucratic paperwork you are familiar with.  

And finally my commentary on US immigration is from a spectrum of people immigrating here from all over the globe.  British citizens do seem to find immigrating to the US to be relatively simple - our London consulate is one of the "easiest" in the world.  And of course British citizens are generally English first language.  Which helps.  Persons from other parts of the globe find our system less friendly.  We could have a long discussion about that, but it's not really relevant to the topic.

Income distribution across UK regionsOffice for National Statistic 2007

UK Region Gross Income
London £27,868
South East England £21,109
East Anglia £19,469
Scotland £19,282
North West England £19,236
West Midlands £18,801
South West England £18,629
Yorkshire & the Humber £18,614
East Midlands £18,321
Wales £17,651
North East England £17,594

Shows the difference between regions and why a national level is wrong on all levels.

Are these mean or median figures?

Are these mean or median figures?

Mean I think, but the point remains either way.  It's more of an indication of the differing pay levels betwen the North and South.

The same is of here in the States. My husband and I decided last month to just tae the decision back into our hands and he is moving here. No 2 places in the States make the same (you get my point) but for him to move here they go by house sizing. For instance for me to support him and myself (2 people) I needed to make $18,000 for him to come.

The same is of here in the States. My husband and I decided last month to just tae the decision back into our hands and he is moving here. No 2 places in the States make the same (you get my point) but for him to move here they go by house sizing. For instance for me to support him and myself (2 people) I needed to make $18,000 for him to come.

Circa £12,000, less than half the tory govt are proposing.  I bet they have to build an extension to the appeals court.

Mean I think, but the point remains either way.  It's more of an indication of the differing pay levels betwen the North and South.

Actually no. If it's a mean income, you can have a lot of people making way more than the number stated, and a lot of people making way less. So the value doesn't really represent an income made by members of the community.

However, if those values are the median income, it might represent a good portion of the population income.

Statistics are quite fascinating - they're often abused by people in power to confuse those who don't understand them.

I have to agree with the sentiments expressed regarding immigration UK -> US vs. US -> UK.
We've done both. He immigrated under a Fiance visa, which took 6 months, lots of b.s. (they "lost" the medical he had down in London which cost a small fortune when you factor in traveling, only for us to have another medical done in the states for his greencard), but - I never felt confused about what we had to submit, and the websites are very straight forward.

The first week we researched my immigration to the UK, I got fed up going in CIRCLES with the UKBA website and the links to Worldbridge and back again. I literally left the room and told my husband - you figure it out, its your country. 

It was only from dedicating HOURS of reading the websites and finding this forum that it all started to take shape. And I didn't like how there wasn't a straight-forward cut-off regarding maintenance. That was where I had anxiety - would we have enough savings? Wouldn't we? Completely up to the reviewer. Whereas with the UK -> US, we knew the exact number (and my mother served as a co-sponsor, which was an additional form or two and relatively easy).

As someone who has went from looking tino moving to the UK to her spouse now moving here, him moving here thus far has proven to be FAR easier than when we were doing it the other way around.

Actually no. If it's a mean income, you can have a lot of people making way more than the number stated, and a lot of people making way less. So the value doesn't really represent an income made by members of the community.

However, if those values are the median income, it might represent a good portion of the population income.

Statistics are quite fascinating - they're often abused by people in power to confuse those who don't understand them.

Mean figures will be higher anyway, variation by region will be similar.  My point remains.  I take your point though.

Still no news - I wonder why all the delays? When changing appeals for family visits they said more rules would be announced "in due course", which basically means sometime between now and the end of the universe. And when the latest migration stats came out last week, they didn't even mention family changes - Damian Green normally does a spiel about "we'll shortly be changing family migration", but didn't this time. Wonder what's been going on behind the scenes? Still reckon we'll probably get something in the next couple of months, though.

It's strange, I can't help but wonder that all these delays have to do with the legal issues the changes would lead to. But that's just a guess...