FBAR and de minimis accounts

I totally am agreeing with you.  I mean as my husband pointed out, clubcard points don't even have any value other than what Tesco decides.

They could end the program tomorrow and cancel everything and we would all be out of luck. 

With all due respect, Tesco, Boots, Superdrug etc. have no idea what my nationality is, nor do they care. And I am not even remotely convinced that any retailer that issues a loyalty card/rewards card or similar will be made to turn over records to the IRS.

Let's get real on this. We could all likely come up with a list of a bazillion things that could be subject to FBAR, but what's the point aside from an exercise in the ridiculous?

Accountants, solicitors and the like NEVER want to be definitive as most of us know Any of you who want to list your loyalty cards and attach a value for FBAR, have at it, but IMHO, it's waiving a red flag in front of a bull, and highly likely to have a return flagged for an audit.

And no, I am not declaring my 'rewards' from Tesco as income either.

I agree completely. I was just telling Sara where the idea has come from that these things might need declaring.

This is not addressed in the FBAR instructions but you might find the calculations easiest if you report the "sub-accounts" individually.

Thanks. I sent in an email requesting a clarification.  Problem with reporting each subset would be the sum of the 'maximum value' in each subcategory would be > the maximum overall value of the account.  For example, at one time say I had £10,000, another I had $10,000, and another $10,000 Euros.  Money would just move between accounts when needed.  At no time was the overall value of the account > say $17,000 USD but adding up the sums of the maximums would be nearly $30,000 USD ($10k + £10k + €10k). 

I'm starting to wonder how many people have a government job simply because the reporting requirement of $10k wasn't indexed for inflation?  Whole process is annoying.

Just remember that the FBAR reporting doesn't affect your taxes; it's just a bit of annoying paperwork. I would likely report each sub account, simply because it *exists* as an account. At the end of the day, it's maybe 10 minutes of your time, and you are completely covered. You could even attach a sticky note with some explanation if you are so moved.

I never said it made sense, and I personally think it's daft, but guya has stated this in various threads.

Completely understand @DrSuperL99.

Look everyone - as the forum users, we own this community, and it's up to us to hold people's feet to the fire when they post something that's bollocks. Now, the official written instructions for the FBAR, as well as the guidance given by IRS personnel over the phone, completely contradicts the position taken by guya. Which one would you rely on?

@politicfool - WELL SAID!!!

There's been a bunch of 'opinions' floating around - when in doubt, defer to the regulations and guidance, and don't try to read to much into things. Some Federalese-speak ambiguity is CYA by the Feds.

Back to what I said a bit ago - we don't need to 'awfulize' everything or look for the hidden 'gotcha'. Like Bob Dylan supposedly said: "did you ever think that Mr. Tambourine Man is just about a tambourine man?"

Maybe "bank account" and "financial institution" is just what it says....

the guidance given by IRS personnel over the phone, completely contradicts the position taken by guya. Which one would you rely on?

Actually, I'd rely on Guya, and Sara, and the IRS. I've just checked the level of my indemnity insurance, and I'll do what I feel comfortable with bearing in mind ALL inputs and my reading of the instructions. It's all any of us amateurs can do. Are we surprised that there may be different views amongst all of us? (As I remember the original discussion, it was about pre-paid credit cards.)

Everyone seems to agree that a normal credit card does not need reporting. If a TP has a credit card (it's not pre-paid and not a debit card), issued and monitored by their bank as part of their account package, and the card is with one of the major card companies, is it an account through the financial institution or an account with the card provider? Does it go on FBAR? Does it go on Form 8938? Pick the level of understanding you're comfortable with. It's Big Brother, there are no 100% correct answers, only interpretations which may or may not be unanimous.

It's time for a Magical Mystery Tour (if Vadio can quote Dylan, I get the Beatles). Google World, Detroit, Michigan Ave (US 12) crosses over the John C. Lodge Freeway. Grab Street View and look at the building on the Southeast corner on Michigan Avenue (the often spoken of relevant Big Brother Ministry). How much information are you comfortable with sending to this building?

 

Completely understand @DrSuperL99.

Look everyone - as the forum users, we own this community, and it's up to us to hold people's feet to the fire when they post something that's bollocks. Now, the official written instructions for the FBAR, as well as the guidance given by IRS personnel over the phone, completely contradicts the position taken by guya. Which one would you rely on?

I think the Oyster card approach to FBAR is a very conservative interpretation, but some professionals seem to operate on the principal that it's safer to declare everything. My approach will be to keep my UK account balances below $10k and just make regular transfers form the US to the UK to cover expenses thus avoiding FBAR and FATCA.

Sara, guya has repeatedly claimed that Oyster cards, Tesco clubcard accounts, Nectar points and the like are fair game for FBAR.

And I have challenged that notion a few fair times as well.  My reason for questioning this is the use of the word *should* in the previous post.  As in you *should* report these items.  Using those types of qualifiers, in an area like this, is going to get a challenge from me if there is no backup.

I think the Oyster card approach to FBAR is a very conservative interpretation, but some professionals seem to operate on the principal that it's safer to declare everything.

And this is where I think it comes from, not necessarily from the actual instructions.  I know the other reasoning has been to post every account you can think of to go over the 25 accounts limit, where you then can exclude detail.


I have a serious concern this forum is going the way of the visa forum.  There is a lot of chatter that professional accountants are purposefully trying to screw the common man for fees.  And a lot of professional laymen to downright laymen trying to state absolute fact.  In this environment, the professionals have largely (and rightly) fled this board. I guess my point is tred carefully and challenge where people are coming from....

I have a serious concern this forum is going the way of the visa forum.  There is a lot of chatter that professional accountants are purposefully trying to screw the common man for fees.  And a lot of professional laymen to downright laymen trying to state absolute fact.  In this environment, the professionals have largely (and rightly) fled this board. I guess my point is tred carefully and challenge where people are coming from....

Sara, your posts are the clearest and least jargon filled of any professional and are, therefore, very valuable in this forum.

Forums are not a replacement for professional advice; they are a place to swap ideas and debate and will contain errors and mis-statements along with some truths and sage advice. So the good has to be taken with the bad and a public forum is always going to be messy. This may well make some professionals nervous.

What I hope this forum does is to educate the tax payer so that they have enough knowledge to tackle some tax problems and know if they are getting good professional advice on more complex issues.

I guess my point is tred carefully and challenge where people are coming from....

This is SAGE ADVICE and it should be applied to the statements of both laymen and professionals.

Thank you Sara for a breath of fresh air!

For the vast majority FBAR is not at all complicated.
Read the instructions and follow them.
Signature authority with a financial institution are the key words.

Thank you Sara for a breath of fresh air!

For the vast majority FBAR is not at all complicated.
Read the instructions and follow them.
Signature authority with a financial institution are the key words.

Couldn't agree more about just reading the instructions.

There's a time and place for interpretations and professional help, but that time is when the instructions are genuinely unclear on a given point. The type of interpretations we've been seeing from time to time, which directly contradict a clear written instruction, should throw up red flags.

Absolutely!
Mr. Tambourine Man probably was just about a tambourine man and 'signature authority' on an account 'with a financial institution' is probably just that.

Absolutely!
Mr. Tambourine Man probably was just about a tambourine man and 'signature authority' on an account 'with a financial institution' is probably just that.

I tend to agree, but IMHO anyone reading the FBAR instructions who doesn't have questions hasn't read them carefully enough and anyone who doesn't have some trepidation about FBAR is either very courageous or hasn't read the bit about the fines and penalties.

The FBAR form itself is pretty simple to fill in once you have decided what it covers, but paragraphs like the one below should make you at least stop and think as it is obviously open to interpretation.

A financial account includes, but is not limited to, a
securities, brokerage, savings, demand, checking, deposit, time deposit,
or other account maintained with a financial institution (or other person
performing the services of a financial institution).