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Topic: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?  (Read 2484 times)

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Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« on: January 29, 2013, 09:04:37 PM »
I am a natural born UK Citizen who is now a US citizen too having lived in the US for 15 years.

All of my earnings are in the US currently but I plan to move back to the UK later in the year with my wife and I THINK I understand the 2012 tax filings I'll need to do and the UK tax filings.

What I'm not sure about is, due to deaths in the family I have amassed quite a substantial sum of UK cash in savings and bonds that I've never reported to the US because I've never though to, and, because the interest it earns is less than £8100, the nice lady at the building society suggested I fill in the paperwork to get the interest paid gross.

So if I now "come clean" on this when I fill do UK taxes (I will probably be self employed), and then also on the US tax forms am I going to trigger any reactions?

I plan to get some professional advise but I was wondering if anyone else has had this sort of thing?

On the flip side I plan to leave money invested in the US too and I'm going to need to report this to the UK I'm guessing?

Taxes were so much easier with PAYE and a 1040-EZ?   :D


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2013, 09:14:59 PM »
You've never reported your foreign bank accounts on your US tax returns?  The forms very clearly ask if you have any accounts outside of the US, so it surprises me that you would have just said you didn't when you clearly have done.


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2013, 09:23:10 PM »
If you have more than $10k in foreign accounts you should have been filing FBAR and then there is the 8938 reporting form that kicks in at higher levels. If you should have filed either of these forms and neglected to do so you should seek professional advice.

Also as a US citizen you have to include any foreign interest on you US taxes. Again, if you have not done this you should seek some professional advice.

If you return to the UK be sure that you organize your US investments and accounts in a manner appropriate for UK and US taxation. Understand the US and UK tax implications of any US retirement accounts and investments in stocks and mutual funds.

As an aside is your wife a UK or EU citizen? if not are you aware of the new UK immigration rules?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 09:27:09 PM by nun »


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2013, 09:31:17 PM »
So I just spoke to my US accountant, and since the money was in a joint account with another UK relative until last year to make managing it easier he thinks we can make a good case for not having reported it till this year because I was just a signatory on the account rather than claiming it was mine.

That should get me out of the US hole, I'll put it on the 2012 returns.  Not sure about the UK one yet though


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 09:32:35 PM »
Been reading every immigration rule I can find, is there something specific you are referring to?


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 09:43:42 PM »
Been reading every immigration rule I can find, is there something specific you are referring to?
The new rules are those that came into effect on July 9th 2012 (new minimum income requirement of £18,600 per year for the UK citizen, residency period for ILR increased to 5 years from 2 years, and couples who have been married 4 years or more outside the US can no longer qualify for immediate ILR).

If you have been reading the UKBA Partner visa pages (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/partners-families/citizens-settled/spouse-cp/can-you-apply/), then you will have been reading the new rules anyway.


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 10:21:24 PM »
So I just spoke to my US accountant, and since the money was in a joint account with another UK relative until last year to make managing it easier he thinks we can make a good case for not having reported it till this year because I was just a signatory on the account rather than claiming it was mine.

That should get me out of the US hole, I'll put it on the 2012 returns.  Not sure about the UK one yet though

For now, let's confine this to the US/IRS. As you describe the situation, it sounds as if your accountant is intending to include the interest starting with 2012 filing and ignore past years. Is this correct? If so, you need to be aware of all consequences of this method. Has your accountant informed you of these? The words "he thinks we can make a good case " causes concern. When is he intending on making this case?

Assuming you have been filing US returns for the past few years, and you were resident in the US, there may be several issues you need to discuss with your accountant. If the interest is £8,100, my guess would be that the amount in the Building Society is over $100,000 (roughly £65,000). Were you filing jointly with your wife? Being required to file a US return plus having over $100,000 (Joint return with wife) in a foreign bank account raises two issues. First, from 2011 onwards, you should have completed Form 8938 if the account was over roughly £65,000. Second, for as long as the funds were in the UK account, you should have been filing an FBAR with the US Treasury Dept. For both of these, the fact that it was a joint account with someone in the UK has no bearing. You had signature authority over a foreign account, and it is the total assets in the account which you would declare, not half.

You may wish to seek a second opinion with another accountant who is perhaps more fully aware of the issues surrounding ownership of a foreign bank account.  
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 10:24:41 PM by theOAP »


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 11:26:36 PM »
You had signature authority over a foreign account, and it is the total assets in the account which you would declare, not half.

I'm afraid that this is quite clear in the IRS tax code so I'm surprised that the advice the OP was given is that he can ignore prior years.
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 11:43:02 PM »
So I just spoke to my US accountant, and since the money was in a joint account with another UK relative until last year to make managing it easier he thinks we can make a good case for not having reported it till this year because I was just a signatory on the account rather than claiming it was mine.

That should get me out of the US hole, I'll put it on the 2012 returns.  Not sure about the UK one yet though

In your first post you implied that you had inherited the money, which is different from what you say in the quote above. What is your accountant going to argue to the IRS, did he mention anything about FBAR? I get the feeling that your accountant isn't really qualified to help you with this and certainly cannot help with the UK side. You need a dual qualified tax advisor, particularly if you are FBAR delinquent.


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 06:24:52 AM »
I'm with Nun, I think you ought to look into finding a dual-qualified tax advisor. The FBAR issue is potentially more serious than your accountant suggests...


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2013, 07:46:27 AM »
My advice would be to close the account and give the money to charity. Walk away and live your life. That might sound extreme but otherwise a locust swarm of agents, advisers and lawyers will consume it anyway. Better that some good come out of this. Think I'm kidding? Read this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/28/us-column-feldman-immigrants-idUSBRE90R10Q20130128

Plenty more like him.


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 10:14:18 AM »
The guy in that article was a certified public accountant?! Wow.

Anyway, I'd take off to South America. But, that's just me... That is basically my answer to everything right now. Out of milk? Right! That's IT! I'm taking off to South America!

Just give me one good reason to do it... Like, taxes! I'd be GONE!!!

 :P
“It was when I realised I had a new nationality: I was in exile. I am an adulterous resident: when I am in one city, I am dreaming of the other. I am an exile; citizen of the country of longing.” ― Suketu Mehta.

Married 04/13/11, in NYC.
Applied for Spouse Visa the following week, with express service, and I was approved 4 days later!
Arrived in the UK 05/20/11.
I took the stupid LIUK Test Oct. 2012.
We were granted ILR In Person in Croydon on 04/23/13.
Got BRP 2 days later, in mail box - it just appeared.

NEXT: The lil' red passpo


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 11:08:24 AM »
Given the situation the OP now finds themselves in, there are various ways to go forward. The following list from David Treitel (*I hope you're OK with me quoting this article) explains the options:

 • do nothing at all and hope [they are] never found....;
 • file from now on and hope that the IRS, US Treasury and Department of Justice do not ask about the past;
 • file the past returns and FBARs “quietly” by mail with the IRS without otherwise alerting the IRS;
 • file the past returns and FBARs with the IRS and include a written explanation of reasonable cause for not filing earlier;
 • file under traditional “voluntary disclosure” and negotiate directly with the IRS;
 • file under the offshore voluntary disclosure programme (OVDP) and pay a substantial penalty based on the maximum value of financial accounts (typically 27.5% of the maximum value of financial accounts in any of the previous eight years); or
 • file under the new “streamlined approach” for the overseas American,......

Each of these options carries different levels of risk or penalties.


http://www.taxation.co.uk/taxation/Articles/2012/10/24/48801/yank-them-filing

It sounds as though the accountant mentioned by the OP has chosen option 2. The last option in the list is not available to the OP.

As is mentioned in the article, there are various levels of risk and penalties involved with each option. It's important that the OP is familiar with each of these, and if so, is in agreement with the direction their accountant has chosen.

EDIT: Sorry, the link above requires a subscription. Perhaps someone here may be able to provide a direct link.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 11:12:07 AM by theOAP »


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 09:23:49 AM »
You've never reported your foreign bank accounts on your US tax returns?  The forms very clearly ask if you have any accounts outside of the US, so it surprises me that you would have just said you didn't when you clearly have done.

Maybe because he didn't think it was any of their business as they were not funds from here and being "hidden" in an offshore account. These are obviously UK funds, and the taxes on them should be paid to HMRC and NOT the IRS/USA. The heavy handed way these rules are being applied do nothing other than confirm the Dept of the Treasury and the IRS are out of control.

The citizen based taxation regime exercised by the USA is at the heart of the issue and causes immeasurable problems for untold numbers of people now caught up in it's unforgiving grasp, so much so that people are renouncing their citizenship. When I explain what's going on to my US friends they are usually astounded.


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Re: Am I going to get in trouble in the UK or the US over this?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 09:39:51 AM »
Maybe because he didn't think it was any of their business as they were not funds from here and being "hidden" in an offshore account. These are obviously UK funds, and the taxes on them should be paid to HMRC and NOT the IRS/USA. The heavy handed way these rules are being applied do nothing other than confirm the Dept of the Treasury and the IRS are out of control.

The citizen based taxation regime exercised by the USA is at the heart of the issue and causes immeasurable problems for untold numbers of people now caught up in it's unforgiving grasp, so much so that people are renouncing their citizenship. When I explain what's going on to my US friends they are usually astounded.

People can be astounded all they like. That doesn't change their obligation to file accurate tax returns when required.


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