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Topic: Could open borders eliminate poverty?  (Read 2805 times)

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Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« on: April 27, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »
There are some interesting arguments in this.  It's written about American immigration, but it echoes many of the same discussions about immigration in the UK.

Quote from: The Atlantic
If wealthy nations open their borders, won't native workers lose their jobs or see their pay shrink? Not so, according to Clemens. He and his co-authors, through study of all the available economic literature, have found that decades of immigration of tens of millions of people to the United States has reduced real wages for the average American worker by fractions of a percent, if at all.

Meanwhile, immigrants to the U.S. from developing countries can increase their income by 100 percent, or 1,000 percent. "Immigration is very, very far from being a zero-sum game of 'their poverty or ours,'" Clemens wrote in 2010. "Within ranges that even slightly resemble current migration levels, it is rather simply 'their poverty or their prosperity,' while we remain prosperous."

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/if-people-could-immigrate-anywhere-would-poverty-be-eliminated/275332/


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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 02:24:23 PM »
Britain is not America, its a wee island and its full up, we don't need anymore people from eastern Europe. If we need skilled staff then we should do as the Aussies do. We NEED to control our own borders or lose control of our NHS, Welfare and housing. Some facts, there are about 65,000 Romanians living in the UK, 27,000 of them are already in Prison!?!. >:(


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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 02:36:17 PM »
Do you have a source for those numbers? Other than the Daily Mail, of course.
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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2013, 02:45:46 PM »
Mr Nigel Farage, UKIP.


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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2013, 02:48:52 PM »
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  [smiley=laugh4.gif] [smiley=laugh4.gif]
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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2013, 03:33:27 PM »
One man doing something despicable doesn't mean we should keep them all out, surely?


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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2013, 07:03:58 PM »
Britain is not ...

Go ahead and argue to keep the doors closed if you want, but that'll eventually lead to the UK getting left behind in an increasingly global market.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4297001/Romanian-raped-woman-so-he-could-learn-English-in-prison.html

Lucky for you no British person has ever committed a crime outside the UK, or The Telegraph might have written a story about that, too.

Oh, wait.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/czechrepublic/1475510/Prague-plans-a-crackdown-on-the-drunken-Britons-turning-it-into-Europes-stag-night-capital.html

Quote from: The Telegraph
A report, released last week by the Czech tourism office, revealed that the historic capital of the Czech Republic, famed for its beautiful architecture, is now attracting large gangs of rowdy men looking for a good time.

Police in [Prague] say that 20 per cent of all weekend crime involves British men on stag nights.


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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2013, 11:12:18 PM »
Warning lots of rambling. A very interesting topic Camoscato. I am for open borders and I do believe individuals have the right to decide where they wish to live. To answer the question... hmmm... stats say that only about 3% of the entire population is living in a country different from the one of their birth so being a migrant is an exception. Immigrants are typically young, healthy and educated. It also doesn't make sense to pay thousands of dollars to move abroad just to mooch off 60 quid a week in job seekers allowance--hint, migrants don't move for benefits, they move to make real money. It takes a special, enterprising person to move away. Unfortunately because of the lack of recognition of job experience or education, many workers take jobs they're well over-qualified for. Fortunately, you see enterprising spirit when many of these workers get tired of wage-labor and become their own bosses and open small businesses.

I think the case for Americans (generally more pro-capitalist) is especially funny since those who seem to despise socialism almost always employ a nanny-state opinion of 'keep 'em out!' You'd think they'd be more open to the idea of employer liberty (freedom to hire who they want and see fit), free competition for the best workers, allowing workers to choose where they want to work, and allowing their own community to assess their needs rather than the government. Economically I'm left leaning, but I also think my work place and my employers have a better ability to decide who they want to hire rather than some whigs in Washington or Parliament :P

Passports and migration controls are only about one hundred years old so I can't see why people think they're natural and fundamental to nations. I also believe people who fear open borders fear their first world countries will be 'swamped' with poor people who will steal all the welfare, enact shariah law and maim people with red eye beams as the amazing EDL guy has prophesized. There is legitimate concern for social institutions and that 'so many' will move in and bring their inflexible social beliefs and change everything--even among people who speak favorably of open migration. It's been explained to me before as Country A has open borders so citizens from Country B swamp in, change major opinion and turn Country A like Country B.

However, that doesn't make practical sense to me. Back when the EU expanded, only three EU countries allowed the emerging Eastern European countries full access to their labor markets, Sweden, Ireland and the UK. I know some DM readers will say they were 'swamped' but how can that be the case? The misguided collective term 'Eastern Europeans' is not homogenous in language or culture. The UK still has a firm British identity, it hasn't become a third world country, they still have the NHS, they still have public housing, they still eat fish & chips, etc. Yes, there is the issue of social institutions feeling pressure from the initial swell in population. Fair enough, but studies show those institutions adjust in time, especially from a larger pool of tax payers.

There might even be an initial 'swamp' but even with Eastern Europeans, the numbers coming to the UK have slowed. I've read articles and studies (I still have them if anyone is interested...) that compare the German experience with Eastern European migrants (they waited until 2007 for open access) with Britain. Guess what? The workers aren't moving there in 'heaps' like the Germans thought. Why? Possibly because over the years of being in the EU and with workers moving to the UK, Ireland and Sweden conditions have improved in countries like Poland. Why would a Polish worker who has found full time work in improved conditions want to take a temporary part time job in Germany? Yep, the UK is still the number one destination for E. Europeans but I would blame a lot of that on the draw of opportunity of London--as an EU friend of mine said, you have to go, because it's London. Also work conditions and communities for E. Europeans have improved and grown in the UK. When the kiddies born in Britain grow up, there will be more bilingual British workers who can push British business in E. Europe. Is that a bad thing?

Economic nationalism is funny to me as are the people who believe it--I believe it's multiculturalism and the wealth of ideas that create innovation. Silicon Valley--beckon of innovation, draws the best talent from around the world, VERY diverse. Someone from a completely different background from Americans, say Korean or Iranian would arguably bring more innovation and different ideas to the table than someone more similar like Canadian or British. Why do cities like New York and London draw more people than say Berlin or Tokyo? Philipe Legrain, a renowned scholar on immigration, says that a more insular city like Tokyo cannot achieve the financial powerhouse or even romantic cosmopolitan status of NYC or LDN unless it becomes more multicultural. Also, with English being the global lingua franca, those cities and countries have that advantage, since most kids aren't encouraged to learn Japanese or German. Also migrants might feel a sense of longevity in their investment in moving to a migrant country (AU, CA, US, UK) rather than a more insular country. They're more likely to start businesses, buy homes, investment money in places they'll expect to be accepted within society.

One thing most scholars say on this topic is that only one or a handful of countries can't enact open border policies. I think it will have to happen progressively in regions of the world with regional cohesion and lax nationality and immigration laws. I used to sharper with these details, being out of school for a year has done the trick... but I know regions of South America and Western Africa are allowing free movement of their citizens, why do you think Lagos is the fastest growing city in the world at the moment?

Even more closed societies like South Korea have recently allowed dual citizenship for their citizens. Why? Because of cultural reasons (some disillusionment here and there...again I have article and can discuss further if people are interested...) but they want their citizens abroad who wanted to naturalize in their host countries the ability to keep their SK passports and return some day (and bring their skills and money with them)... Interestingly, what I consider an unexpected consequence of SK new law is that more SK mothers are paying heaps of money for their children to be born in the US and have dual citizenship. I know to the 14th amendment haters out there this is despicable, but I see it as in 18 years we’ll have more SK students and entrepreneurs who will make the US more awesome. If they have a US passport, they’re less likely to emigrate to Canada, Australia or EU (and make those places more awesome). SK has an outstanding standard of living so I doubt they’ll move over to steal our pathetic benefits…  Even if they never ever touch US soil again, we all know they’ll have to pay taxes anyway as US citizens, so where do we lose?

I know some people will bark and say ‘oh that ruins the integrity of citizenship!’ IMO, citizenship has already been ruined because it’s systematically built not for integrity and more with state sovereignty and exclusion. Statelessness is not to be encouraged because being stateless makes you less than human. Citizenship somewhere is necessary to have rights, suffrage, right abode and right to emigrate.

Speaking of rights, I'm one of those who is annoyed about the lack of symmetry in our right to exit and enter. In the UN universal declaration of human rights (currently the closest thing recognized as universal human rights) article 13(2) says we as humans have the right to exit and return to our country of origin but it does not specify a right to enter another country. I argue the ability to leave is difficult to exercise without the ability to enter. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a13

As for arguments against it, the article said (as many others have argued) the welfare state can be protected by setting certain limitations—be it long term residency or citizenship. If the argument against migrants is fear of their use of welfare, that in itself is more of an argument AGAINST the welfare state than it’s protection.

For a micro example, El Paso and Juarez is one city cut in half by some line in the sand, Americans can go to both sides, but Mexicans can’t come to the other. A lot of people fully justify borders by language and cultural barriers, fine fair enough. BUT I think I as a Texan have more in common with the residents of Juarez than those in Maine, so culture and language is not wholly sound for justifying borders. My friends in Spain feel the same about their neighbors in Morocco and the retirees from Sweden and Finland. As someone who lives in a border state, it’s frustrating to be dictated by rules set by politicians thousands of miles away when I know border cities could gain economically from fewer restrictions.

That's all I'll say for now, I apologize for the rambling :P
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 07:28:27 AM by RAR »
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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2013, 11:57:27 PM »
Wow, RAR, that wasn't rambling at all, but a well reasoned, well supported, and intelligently presented argument.  I don't agree with all your points, but you've certainly made your case convincingly.  Brilliant post.  
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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 06:52:14 AM »
Excellent post, RAR!  You touched on the ability of a host government to limit access to various resources for immigrants if the worry is they're only coming to take advantage of the generosity of the host country, which is something those of us who've come to the UK can understand ("No access to public funds").

I think if immigration policy were better explained, there's a greater likelihood more people would be in favor of immigration rather than fear it.  We've all seen posts on here from people who explained their immigration path to stunned relatives and friends who thought all you had to do was marry a British person to unlock access to untold riches from the welfare state, so it's not as though the average British (or American) citizen fully understands the issue.

Of course, it's easier for the government to blame all of society's problems on immigrants taking stuff away from hard-working citizens, so I doubt we'll be seeing clearer explanations any time soon.


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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2013, 08:06:41 AM »
Re:the original question....no, IMHO.

Open borders will not eliminate differentials in intelligence, physical and mental abilities or any of the other characteristics that make us individuals. Nor does it guarantee that only the 'best and brightest' migrate to countries with more opportunities. And, there is a good argument for keeping highly skilled and well-educated folks at "home". Developing countries fall (further) behind when those with the most to contribute leave.

I suspect many of the former 'colonies' would have welcomed closed borders 'back in the day'. Who wants to be colonized and ruled by outsiders?

At the end of the day, this planet has limited resources, and the total population of the planet is sufficiently large to beg the question whether those resources can support all of us. There's extreme poverty in the USA as well as in Africa, and open borders definitely won't change that.

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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 08:53:36 AM »
Open borders will not eliminate differentials in intelligence, physical and mental abilities or any of the other characteristics that make us individuals.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like you're saying there is some inherent difference in intelligence and physical ability between people who live in rich countries and those who live in poor countries.

If that's your argument, I disagree.

Nor does it guarantee that only the 'best and brightest' migrate to countries with more opportunities.

The point isn't allowing the best and brightest to leave home for more opportunity, it's allowing everyone to leave home for more opportunities.

And, there is a good argument for keeping highly skilled and well-educated folks at "home". Developing countries fall (further) behind when those with the most to contribute leave.

I don't think the problems of third world poverty are being caused by emigration from areas of poverty.  If you stopped all Hatians from leaving Haiti, would it suddenly become a first world nation?

There's extreme poverty in the USA as well as in Africa, and open borders definitely won't change that.

I don't think you can compare extreme poverty in Africa to extreme poverty in the US.  In Africa, extreme poverty means thousands of people dying of starvation.  Even in the poorest parts of the US, there are not thousands of people starving to death.


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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 11:16:39 AM »
No, you read it incorrectly. The question posed was strictly about open borders, but poverty is more than geography.

Whether we want to admit it or not, we are NOT created equal. Some folks are smarter, some are stronger, and some are satisfied to just get by. Free movement would not eliminate those individual characteristics. Whatever the opportunities might be, not everyone has the ability or the desire to avail themselves of such opportunities.

And you miss the point again - many developing countries bemoan that their best and brightest leave, and offer incentives to stay. I don't suggest that any country stop folk from leaving....Haiti will be Haiti, but if the bright and able leave, who remains? And are they better off?

Most of us thankfully have never experienced hunger or extreme poverty. We see it in Africa on a massive scale for sure, whereas in the USA its widespread, and there's more hidden poverty than most of us know about. And even in the affluent areas, more kids are constantly hungry than you would imagine.

At the end of the day, it's still about finite resources and an overpopulated earth. Open borders cannot eliminate that.
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Re: Could open borders eliminate poverty?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 11:36:06 AM »
an overpopulated earth.

I'm with you on this point. Overpopulation is the root of every single problem on the planet.
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