British Bar in Brooklyn Accused of Discrimination

According to the New York Times, a British-owned bar in New York has been accused of discriminating against non-Briitish job applicants.

Obviously, they'll stop at nothing - Nothing! - before they own us lock, stock and barrel again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/nyregion/british-pub-in-brooklyn-runs-afoul-with-city-for-help-wanted-ad.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fnyregion%2Findex.jsonp

Haha! That's my local. Seriously. I'm in there all. the time. It's a block away.

They have only two British bartenders--one English guy and one Scottish. That's it. The rest of the their staff is American girls. The English guy only works one shift a week.

It makes their sign outside last Saturday that said "Yes, we have foreign staff" or something make more sense, though.

That is totally normal in NYC.

Many of the Irish or English pubs only hire Irish or English people to work in them - many hire people who are undocumented, but not all do. 

My dad, who was from Derry, owned several Irish/English pubs, in lower Manhattan, and ALL he hired were Irish/English people to work in them, aside from a Scottish dude, or a Welsh waitress, once in a while... They were also fine. Once, he also had one Australian waitress, because she was dating the Irish bartender. That actually caused a bit of a drama! With the customers! 

Many of my dad's staff were undocumented. It was totally normal. Many places hire undocumented workers 'based on nationality of origin' in NYC. I'm only going back two years, so this is not some sort of 'old times' thing!

Trust me when I say that this is very normal in NYC. Honestly, as a native New Yorker, when I enter a NYC Irish/English pub, I expect it to be staffed with Irish/English people.

It is also normal in NYC to have a Spanish speaking waitress in a Mexican cafe, or a Chinese person behind the counter in a Chinese take-out joint, or an Italian in an Italian joint, or someone from Japan in a sushi joint.

In NYC, if I were to go out for, oh lets say...  Korean food, and the waitress was from... Russia, or Germany, or Italy... or wherever... not from the part of the world that the food came from... I would be totally freaked out! 

There is something to be said for authenticity, in NYC.

Immigrants stick together. For survival. They hire each other, live in certain areas together, and help each other. They have a literal and physical support network, and it does not prevent them from assimilating. If anything, it helps them build a life in their new country, and become a part of the fabric that binds NYC together.

It is actually very sad that 'Americans in the UK' do not do the same thing. Other cultures here do it! I think we would all be much better off here if we had that fabric in place, as a culture, of support for each other, in the UK. It would aid new people with jobs and housing and information. But, alas, for whatever reason... we don't. The closest thing Americans in the UK have to some sort of system and fabric of support are a bunch of chat boards, like this one, and it is not as effective at all.

It is a shame, really...

I've eaten fish and chips there! 

Also, agreed with Lara, it's totally normal and even expected by the people who go to these places, so I don't even get how anyone cared enough to give this woman a hard time.

I was in a Scottish Pub on the Upper East Side two days ago and the guy working there was from Liverpool. Also, the couple of Irish pubs I'd been to years ago had Irish staff. In fact, my friend and I were actually disappointed because on the way there we thought 'Oh they're totally going to have a Scottish bartender and we can chat about Scotland with him/her!' but then he turned out to be Liverpudlian. Still good for a chat about Bovril and how Glasgow is generally better than Edinburgh! 

The last time I was in the 'American Diner' in Harrods, I asked the manager if they had any Americans working there, and she told me that in the 6 years she had been managing, they have never had even one American working there.

I found that interesting.

She said, 'Maybe they don't apply for jobs here?'

Yeah, maybe. Who knows?

Anyway, it would have been nice to have an actual American serving me in the 'American Diner' but no worries, LOL!

Again, as a New Yorker, I sort of expect that sort of thing. It is like a strange 'double standard' in NYC - The Chinese, Brits, French (or whomever) can totally 'hire based on ethnicity and/or nationality of origin' but as Americans we cannot hire people based on the fact that they are Americans! Because THAT is discrimination, and we dislike discrimination.

I think as Americans (I hope!) we are taught from day one that 'hiring based on race, creed, and/or skin colour' is discrimination.

Whereas Brits are known to abide by the 'British Jobs for British People' theory. Even abroad. They tend to stick together.

As are MANY other cultures!

I'm not saying anyone is 'wrong' here, just that different cultures think about such things in different ways.

In MA if I went to a Chinese food place, I would expect it to be staffed by Chinese people. The same goes for Japanese, Italian, And Greek, but less so for Irish and British places. Whenever we order Chinese here, I find it a bit odd that the girl who takes our order is white and British.

I also frequented a coffee chain on the south shore of MA that exclusively hired women/girls to make and serve coffee. They hired men, but not in that capacity. That always bothered me, but the coffee was too good to stop going there. Plus I didn't want to give my money to Dunkies or Starbucks which puts the smaller/local chains out of business. With Chinese places and such, it never occurred to me to mind.

WELL, WOMEN NEED JOBS TOO! Right? And, how many places hire men over women?
TONNES! Right?!

So, anyplace that 'hires women over men' is in some ways a mark of progress, so long as it is not a strip club, or something like that! HA HA!

In all honesty, when I look back on my own hiring, I can see a pattern. It was not intentional, but there IS a pattern.

I tended to hire a lot of gay people, and usually I hired people who spoke a second language (many were internationals, some were American born, but most spoke a second language), and people who were some sort of artist, and people who were recommended to me by someone I already knew.

I was hiring for a nightclub, and no one needed to make art art at work, or speak anything but English in the club, and since it was not a sex club, no ones sexual preference should have come into play in the hiring!

If you had asked me if I hired impartially, I totally would have answered YES - yet there IS a pattern. I can clearly see a pattern in my hiring when I look back now.

I mean, I hired an entire staff, almost exclusively made up of gay (both male and female), bilingual (often internationals), artists.... who were almost ALL friends of friends!

No one hires 'fairly' when they hire people, because we are all human, and we ALL have natural preferences.

Anyway, when I walk into an Irish Pub in NYC, I 'naturally assume' based on years of experience, that the staff with at least be from the UK, if not from Ireland.

Is it considered 'a fair hiring practice' in NYC to do that? Yeah. It is. Is it considered 'a fair hiring practice' based on the laws of America? No, I guess it could not be, could it?

But, hey, it is NYC, right? The rebels! The 'Redheaded Stepchild of America'!!!!   

Again, there is something to be said about meeting customer expectations, and authenticity. And supporting each other abroad. No matter where one comes from.

Again, I think it really sucks that Americans do not do this for each other in the UK.

Other nationalities and ethnicities do it in the UK. And it enables them to get ahead, socially, economically, and even politically.

Strength in numbers and all that... right?

I've worked for 2 US companies in the UK, in Greater London.  I think having US education and experience helped me get jobs there.  There were 2 American senior managers at 1 company.  They liked that I'm also American but other than that I certainly didn't get additional privileges while working there. 

My dad, who was from Derry, owned several Irish/English pubs, i

Hijack, but if your dad was from Derry, why didn't you apply for a UK passport through him?

Hold on a sec guys - it's not against the law to hire folk of other nationalities. Far from it. When I go to my British local, I expect the owner to be British or at least have some connection - you can totally tell when they don't. My old local here in LA was sold to a German guy and the English Pub nuances went out the window. It turned into a bar that had an English name and overpriced mediocre fish and chips.

The point is that it is illegal to post that you would favor one nationality over the other. It's the same, to the commissioner lady, as if they'd said that women would get the nod or that only those between the ages of 21 - 25 need apply. Totally not allowed.

The owner of the Brooklyn pub technically broke the law by saying Brits would get priority. If she instead left it at: "Priority will go to those that have intimate knowledge of life in the United Kingdom" she'd have probably not had such an issue.

Hold on a sec guys - it's not against the law to hire folk of other nationalities.

The owner of the Brooklyn pub technically broke the law by saying Brits would get priority. If she instead left it it: "Priority will go to those that have intimate knowledge of life in the United Kingdom" she'd have probably not had such an issue.

Bingo.

I know the owners, they were customers in my bar before opening their own.  I think this clearly is a case of wording.  The law states that you can not specify in an ad for a certain gender, race, ethnicity or age.  That is discrimination.  If it was just worded "knowledge of British culture a plus" it would have been ok.  Hopefully it will work out ok for them. They are the only place that I know of, except for my house, that has Pendryn whiskey  

Hijack, but if your dad was from Derry, why didn't you apply for a UK passport through him?

Just what I was going to say . If your dad is from Derry, wouldn't that make you a British citizen?

Many of the Irish or English pubs only hire Irish or English people to work in them - many hire people who are undocumented, but not all do. 

Both of the British staff at this pub in particular both have green cards via American wives. I've chatted with one of them about the terribleness of the immigration system. And I've talked to the other about his recent separation with his wife so I assume that that's how he got his green card. And like I said before, the rest of their staff is Americans.

Just what I was going to say . If your dad is from Derry, wouldn't that make you a British citizen?

This. Or, wouldn't you have Irish citizenship as well, for that matter.

The owner of the Brooklyn pub technically broke the law by saying Brits would get priority. If she instead left it at: "Priority will go to those that have intimate knowledge of life in the United Kingdom" she'd have probably not had such an issue.

Exactly!