Religion in Public Schools

There's nothing useful in the bible or any other religious text that isn't also present in secular ethics and philosophy. All the supernatural stuff is useless.

We are not necessarily in disagreement. If only ethics and philosophy were taught with the same potency....

I find myself kind of annoyed by it, and rather glad I'll never have to deal with sending kids to school here.  I think I'd have to have them opt out (at least until they were old enough to decide for themselves), and it would be extremely awkward, to say the least.

I wouldn't have any problem with a general RE class, as envisioned by the government's standards.  As I've understood it, it's simply meant to be comparative world religions and ethics, with a slight emphasis on Christianity for cultural literacy.  Unfortunately, that's certainly not what goes on here.  Classes are split up by denomination; one group's lessons are nothing but dogma and intolerance, and the Everyone Else lessons are completely neglected.  And as for religious assemblies, I see absolutely no point there.

Thing is...I'm not an atheist!  I'm actually a (very liberal, pretty un-orthodox) Christian myself.  Which is another reason that having religion in schools really bothers me.  I believe it's the responsibility of families, and of faith communities, to provide spiritual guidance and religious and moral instruction.  Call me a control freak, but if my kids were getting a religious message, I'd want to know exactly what the message was, and make sure that it meshed with the beliefs I'm trying to instill.  There are all sorts of 'Christian' ideas and doctrines that I wouldn't want anywhere near my kids, and I wouldn't be at all happy letting the school system (particularly our local one!) make those decisions.

More generally, I think religion in schools is bad for religion as a whole.  When you've got religious content in school, I think two things happen.  First, it becomes very easy for parents and families to become lazy.  Why make the effort to haul the kids out of bed for Sunday School, or drag them to Catechism classes, when they'll learn it in RE anyway?  Second, from the kids' perspective, it becomes one more set of workbooks that they can't see ever being relevant once they've left school (a belief that's reinforced when their parents don't make it a priority).  I think these are particular problems for the 'dominant' religion, and I think it helps explain the decline in attendance membership, especially in the established churches.  

I try to explain this to my Fundie family members at home, whenever they go on about getting God back into schools, but it doesn't compute.  Then again, if I'm right, maybe it would be best thing that could happen to the U.S.!

I believe it's the responsibility of families, and of faith communities, to provide spiritual guidance and religious and moral instruction.  

This is my quandary. It has been shown I think that values are established at a very young age. I think ethics and rational moral reasoning are as important as, if not more important than multiplication tables. They are the tools - along with empiricism - we use for decision making (voting for instance) later in life (in the "real world"). Internal decision making processes will be developed somehow - we don't live in vacuums. I just think a well-trained, qualified teacher is better than Simon Cowell.

I just think a well-trained, qualified teacher is better than Simon Cowell.

I take your point, and I agree that just about anything is better than Simon Cowell.  But, when it comes to this particular issue, well-trained and qualified are not the same as either 'able to present the material in a completely unbiased, non-controversial way' or 'shares in my beliefs and will present the topics in a way with which I'm comfortable.'

Maybe it's honestly not such a problem elsewhere in the U.K.  But out here, it just doesn't work that way.  You end up with students receiving biased, or flat-out incorrect, information about other denominations and faiths, and being exposed to very particular 'flavours' of guest speakers, propaganda and activities (i.e. pro-life assemblies, 'inspirational' trips to Rome, evangelical/fundamentalist ministries).  Basically, the same thing you'd expect from the 'Bible Belt' back home. 

So if the choice is Simon Cowell or Bob Jones University, I'd rather go with Simon Cowell. 

Yes, there are areas that are very different.

I also find it very odd that almost every school does a Nativity play.  Surely that is why Sunday School exists.

Also, religious schools being funded by the government isn't new.  The first Sikh school opened under the Blair gov't. 

I also find it very odd that almost every school does a Nativity play.  Surely that is why Sunday School exists.

Nativity plays have more to do with dressing up than Christianity - how else do you explain the numbers of Giraffes and Tigers you get? They're really a wintertime equivalent to maypole dancing...

I have noticed.  If I were Christian and really cared then I would want it to be correct, or Biblical whatever, and if I wasn't then why not just have something other than the birth of Jesus.  Why not some sort of other winter or even Santa themed play?

Nativity plays have more to do with dressing up than Christianity - how else do you explain the numbers of Giraffes and Tigers you get? They're really a wintertime equivalent to maypole dancing...

Yes, but that kind of proves my second point.

I was actually pretty let down to learn that our church didn't have any sort of children's pagaent/play at the holidays.  They're always really cute!  But why would the church go to the trouble of holding something like that when the kids already do a Nativity play at school?

I guess you have to look at it historically.  The Church was the only source of education in times gone by.

So that makes it ok that the government now builds schools whose primary distinction is a religious one? 

There is plenty of outcry in the US over vouchers possibly being used to send children to religious schools.  Can you imagine the uproar if the state of Pennsylvania specifically built a school dedicated to whatever religion? 

I was pretty shocked when the Sikh school opened.  Surely this is something we want to be moving away from. 

I was pretty shocked when the Sikh school opened.  Surely this is something we want to be moving away from.

The reason that faith schools are popular is that on average they provide a significantly better education than purely secular ones. The net result is a significant number of people attending church regularly in order to get their children into a faith school, even when they consider that religion to be complete codswallop.

That's not even true. Because these schools are allowed to be more selective, they can just kick out pupils that might bring their scores down, so it just looks like they're better. I think faith schools should not only stop being state funded, they should be completely eradicated. Brainwash your children on your own time and money.

Also, if you are sending your kid to a religious school then you already have interested parents, which goes a long way to making education successful.  Especially if it is a tight knit community that puts pressure on the kids to perform.  And, if in the states, added pressure that you have spent all that money.

Religious school also often don't have provisions for any children with special needs and/or learning difficulties.  They usually get disinvited when problems develop.

I am not for banning religious schools though, only state funded ones.

So that makes it ok that the government now builds schools whose primary distinction is a religious one? 

I didn't say it was "OK" -- just pointing where they're coming from. 
Personally, if I had kids in school now, I would be up in arms about the threats of testing and ranking for primary school pupils. And even the proposed ban on packed lunches!  I've rankled in times gone by about the religion issue and compulsory school uniform but they're really going bonkers now.

I live in Northern Ireland. I swear, making all of the schools secular and religion a private thing instead of nearly forced issue, would do this place a world of good.

EVERYTHING here is tied to Catholic/Protestant.

They also taught the crucifixion to P1s. Imagine how fun it is to discuss murder with your four year-old.  Not to mention the joy at Easter when the zomie Jesus info was inflicted.  It was lovely trying to explain to my daughter "No, I'm sorry, grandma won't be coming back" since my mother recently died.