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Topic: Re: American accent in England(Regional Dialect Debate)  (Read 9362 times)

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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2004, 02:09:27 PM »
I just really believe that a country the size of the US with sooooo many different nationalities adding to the melting pot of language is going to produce more dialects.  Statement of fact or not, that is my opinion.  And unless someone proves otherwise, I'm sticking to it.  

I respect your opinion, but the article you posted to support it does more to contradict it.


Re: Re: American accent in England
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2004, 02:16:36 PM »
This is it.  I swear.  

What I did was give a direct link to the article.  I then gave a general synopsis of what the article said.  I wasn't quoting the article.  Therefore I wasn't omitting anything.  I read it.  That is what I got out of it and what I felt was important as a way of introducing the article.  I wasn't presenting what I wrote as being all that the article said.  Surely that was obvious?  



I don't think the article does contradict my opinion, since it doesn't say anywhere how many dialects there are thought to be in the UK.  And since it does say that there are anywhere between three and thousands in the US I will stick to my opinion. I did not post it to prove a point, merely to share interesting information.   It does say that at the time of the Revolution there were more dialects in the UK, but goes on to say that with immigration into the US from other countries this changed.  Perhaps you should read the entire article instead of 'fine-toothing' it in order to find any mistakes on my part. 


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2004, 03:55:18 PM »
This is a fun topic! I thought the article only touched on certain regions on the US; it seemed to group alot of the regions of America as "general accents."  ;D And the New England accent {on the map in the article} seemed to include NY, NJ, a bit of PA but yet the written article only touched mainly on Boston or hard New England accents {which *no one* from NJ, NY, PA talk with.} A fun read nonetheless and its always nice to see what other opinions are.

Just as there are plenty of people in the UK who think everyone from the US has either a Texas drawl or a Long Island inflection. 
Word!   ;D

Questions that were asked to me about town with people I just met:

"You sound like one of the Sopranos!"
"Well, you don't sound like one of the girls on Friends-- THEY are from NY!"

Cute! And trust me, I don't sound like one of the Sopranos... my mom on the other hand.....  ::) I have NY'rs asking me where I am from! When I say "right here" and their response is "Yeah, right. Where were you born?" and the answer is 'California, but I moved to NY when I was 4 and have been here ever since' they go, "Thats it! You DO talk like a westerner." And its not a random comment either as its said usually a few times per day at work {I work in a tasting room at a vineyard.} When I got into a deep conversation about accents, someone said, "You learned to talk out there so thats what you carried back here with you." Im not sure if that was drunk-talk but I see a hint of truth in that perhaps. When I hear my neighbors talk, I think to myself, "I really dont sound like that!" Also, my dad is from Oslo, my mom is from Milano but has lived in NY since she was about 10 yrs of age so there is a nice mesh of accents just in my house alone.

Again, I think this is a fun topic and I enjoy reading about accents from other parts of America I know absolutely nothing about. As someone else mentioned, when I hear a southern accent~ it all sounds the same to me. I can not tell the difference between someone from TX and someone from AL. So to me, its really interesting to find out about other dialects in this country. Too bad we do not all have microphones and a live voice chat here-- that would be a blast regarding this topic!
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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2004, 04:08:20 PM »
Cascode,

Affectionately and with respect, I would venture a guess that you really lack a true breadth of observation for some of what you argue about US accents and dialects. You have been exposed to a much smaller pool of speakers than your average American who has lived there for decades. To that extent, I can sort of understand Mindy's frustration - she grew up there.  ;) (as did I).

Particularly up to the second World War, the US population was not as mobile as it is today, and there were great differences between the English spoken say, in coastal South Carolina and that spoken in upstate New York.

I think my earlier point was that even within these discreet dialect regions, such as Virginia, my home state, natives (but admittedly perhaps not those from other parts of the US, or those from other countries) can hear the difference between their own local speech and that of people from an hour or so away.

Geographically, that means that the divisions are much larger than in the UK, where, as you point out, big differences sometimes exist between narrowly adjacent regions (Liverpool and Lancashire, just as one example).

However, and this is something the US has in common with the UK, there is a gradient not only of region, but also in social class. There are usually prestige forms and "lower" forms of local accents wherever you go in the US.

There are true dialects, or rather were, in the US, but there has been significant levelling due to mobility of the population and the rise of mass media in the 20th century. My sense is that local forms of English in the UK are more tenacious, but from the reading I have done on this topic, I believe there is also some levelling going on in this country as well.

I don't know how many times I have heard English people say Americans thought an English accent was what Dick van Dyke used in Mary Poppins. Those of us who actually live here probably have a greater level of linguistic sophistication on that score than your average tourist/visitor, though. Conversely, there aren't too many Brits who can convincingly do an American accent - one of my favourite examples of this malady is Dianna Troy on Star Trek. I think to really be able to hear the subtleties, you really have to live there for a while... ;)


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Re: Re: American accent in England
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2004, 04:19:21 PM »
This is it.  I swear.  

What I did was give a direct link to the article.  I then gave a general synopsis of what the article said.  I wasn't quoting the article.  Therefore I wasn't omitting anything.  

What you posted was:
Quote
It also puts American Regional Dialects at 24.

It doesn't. It says:
Quote
Today, scientific estimates of the number of American dialects range from a basic three (New England, Southern and Western/General American) to 24.

It gives a RANGE of ESTIMATES. Not an absolute figure. That is significantly different to your synopsis where you give one number at the top end of the range. I see that as an omission of significant information.

The artice cites a basic THREE dialects. At a basic level UK has FOUR. Scots, English, Irish, and Welsh. These exist, regardless of who can or can't tell them apart. So, to that extent, the article you posted does contradict your opinion.

I am not trying to find any mistakes you made. Simply, when you tell me my opinion is wrong, would you not expect me (or any reasonable person) to offer better explanation of it ? You post a link to an article which supports my opinion. Would you not expect me cite it ?

This is just an exchange of opinion - not a personal issue. As a moderator, you should understand that.


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2004, 04:26:37 PM »
PS: I know what I am talking about with local accents in the US - I grew up in rural Virginia and I got rid of all traces of my local accent at a tender age because it is a weird-sounding version of Southern that others would tend to associate with, well, let's just say I wouldn't be seen as the brightest light in the chandelier.

Chuck 'isherock ruatarr inder.

Anyone want to venture a guess?

How about

Gimme a shut of piper.

Any takers?

How about

Her harr's afarr.

What about

Hwarrs at lish at?

Oi could gou own n own...


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2004, 04:34:43 PM »
OK, Misch-- I give up! Explain to the silly Yank {northerner} what that's all about please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;)
Lived in Cheltenham, England> 2003-2004
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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2004, 04:38:21 PM »
PS: I know what I am talking about with local accents in the US - I grew up in rural Virginia and I got rid of all traces of my local accent at a tender age because it is a weird-sounding version of Southern that others would tend to associate with, well, let's just say I wouldn't be seen as the brightest light in the chandelier.

Chuck 'isherock ruatarr inder.

Would you please hrow this rock through that window over there.


Gimme a shut of piper.

I would be grateful if you could lend me a piece of paper.



Her harr's afarr.

Oh, my, God, that lady's hair spray seems to have caught flame.


Hwarrs at lish at?

I would like to take the dog for his constitutional - now where did I put that leash?

Oi could gou own n own...


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2004, 04:42:02 PM »
And a bonus question:

Atunaintissun an issunaintattun, it's tothern.


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2004, 04:45:05 PM »
I never, ever would have figured that out. Good fun!
Lived in Cheltenham, England> 2003-2004
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Re: Re: American accent in England
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2004, 04:47:31 PM »


What you posted was:


It gives a RANGE of ESTIMATES. Not an absolute figure. That is significantly different to your synopsis where you give one number at the top end of the range. I see that as an omission of significant information.

I know what I posted and I know why I posted it.  It was a link to interesting information.  Since I pointed out both the 24 estimate and the 3 theory, and since I carefully refrained from saying 'thousands' I think I was fair in my synopsis.  And since I posted a link to the article which people were free to read and form their own opinions, I am completely happy with what I posted.  

Quote
The artice cites a basic THREE dialects. At a basic level UK has FOUR. Scots, English, Irish, and Welsh. These exist, regardless of who can or can't tell them apart. So, to that extent, the article you posted does contradict your opinion.

You yourself are in this case only quoting the part of the article that supports your opinion.  Although I accept that there may be three basic dialects, I personally feel that the sub-categories of these dialects would add up to many many more than the dialects in the UK.  Northeast is lumped into a 'New England' dialect.  Since I lived in different parts of the Northeast for 25 years, I know that there are many dialects in this area.  As  ny 2 uk pointed out, the Boston accent is completely and totally different from the New Jersey accent.  They are nothing like my own Appalachian Pennsylvanian accent.    

Quote
I am not trying to find any mistakes you made. Simply, when you tell me my opinion is wrong, would you not expect me (or any reasonable person) to offer better explanation of it ? You post a link to an article which supports my opinion. Would you not expect me cite it ?

Again, I don't think the article supports your opinion.  Since it puts the US regional accent somewhere between three and thousands and does not give a number for UK regional accents.  

Quote
This is just an exchange of opinion - not a personal issue. As a moderator, you should understand that.

Thank you for pointing out what I should understand as a moderator.  Maybe it's your habit of pointing out what I should and shouldn't understand in every debate I get into with you that causes me to have such a problem not feeling that this is personal with you.  


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2004, 04:50:08 PM »
Cascode,

Affectionately and with respect, I would venture a guess that you really lack a true breadth of observation for some of what you argue about US accents and dialects. You have been exposed to a much smaller pool of speakers than your average American who has lived there for decades. To that extent, I can sort of understand Mindy's frustration - she grew up there.  ;) (as did I).


However, and this is something the US has in common with the UK, there is a gradient not only of region, but also in social class. There are usually prestige forms and "lower" forms of local accents wherever you go in the US.

There are true dialects, or rather were, in the US, but there has been significant levelling due to mobility of the population and the rise of mass media in the 20th century. My sense is that local forms of English in the UK are more tenacious, but from the reading I have done on this topic, I believe there is also some levelling going on in this country as well.



Nice post Misch.
I agree with much of what you say.
At a simple level, I have been a frequent visitor to USA. NY city and state, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Georgia, Texas, LA etc.
Yes, there are regional differences, some quite local.

The point I would make is that the differences are not so marked as in UK. Maybe that is just my Brit perspective, but I have a reasonably good ear for dialects. Nah, that is much too simple. It is a combination of dialect, accent, intonation, vernacular, phraseology, local jargon, class, age......but put it together and one can make a fair guess.

I also agree with your point about the levelling of local accents. Or inflection. It is odd to hear a Scots teenagager make a comment sound like a question in direct reflection of the Aussie Neighbours soap. It is inflection, rather than accent.

Och ! Enough for now. LOL
The media has had a huge effect on that.


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2004, 05:01:29 PM »
And a bonus question:

Atunaintissun an issunaintattun, it's tothern.

It ain't this one, and it ain't that one...it's the other one!

That's how my family talks (and how I talk when I'm talking to them!).   ;D


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Re: American accent in England
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2004, 05:05:26 PM »
Very good Lola!!!

Full marks!!! :D


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Re: Re: American accent in England
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2004, 05:05:48 PM »


I know what I posted and I know why I posted it.  It was a link to interesting information.  

Thank you for pointing out what I should understand as a moderator.  Maybe it's your habit of pointing out what I should and shouldn't understand in every debate I get into with you that causes me to have such a problem not feeling that this is personal with you.  

Mindy

Thank you for being patient with me. The link was and is interesting. Thank you for that.

I don't believe I have previously made any comment about you as a moderator. If I didn't it can hardly be called a habit.

We Brits can be a pain in the ars*........lol


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