UK Immigration: Britons Want 'Drastic Action' To Reduce Immigration

This observations could apply to just about any country anywhere and are not UK-specific.

This is probably true, but the UK, whether it likes it or not, must strive to hold itself to a higher standard. It is like Greece in the ancient world.

Newton was British, as was Wilberforce, Thomas Paine, Hume, Florence Nightingale, Locke, Mary Wollstonecraft, Bertrand Russel, etc., etc.

They (re?)invented reason and defined the modern human condition.

Hi,

To an extent, I agree with you both, other countries have also taken those 'ways' and they've become more entrenched in their societies/cultures. For instance, with the absolutely rapid growth in India, I read a very interesting article a few years ago whereby a lot of the young university graduates coming straight into well (relatively) paying jobs rightaway were spending large amounts of their disposable incomes on cars, computers, furnishing their rental apartments with big screen TV's etc - and then when interviewed, saying they didn't really care of the future and wanted those items immediately as they didn't want to get 'left behind'. Currently, India has a rather large national debt issue that's becoming more of an issue as growth slows down somewhat.

I agree that 'blinkered' and 'ignorant' people exist everywhere too and of course, other countries also can and do take time over big decisions about the their country as a whole.

With the UK, these aspects have always seemed to be a part of the culture/society over the last few decades/since the 1950's. Within living memory of those who can, very often you'll hear them say that in their youth 1920's-1950's their values were much different and much more 'family orientated' and 'financially sensible'.

Although it's perfectly natural to take a trip down memory lane and marvel at acheivements and glories past, and of which the UK has many and plenty world class level specifics in all areas of life/industry/people, I sometimes can't help but feel the UK looks a little 'too' much to the past and not as much to the future. When the future is mentioned, there's often a lot of 'noise' and protest' and 'resistance'. Just around my area, the two big examples are Crossrail which has been 'mooted' since the 1970's and only recently finally begun, and the talk of expanding Heathrow and terminal six. The whole 'Terminal 5' talk was around 2 decades before work commenced. I then look (and family members and friends/business acquaintances who've been there) at emerging economies construct/make infrastructure much more quickly as well as other similar G8/G20 countries who also overall 'do' things much quicker than we do. In conversation the other day, a relative and their friends visiting the UK and Europe to see where they might invest were laughing when they found out Eurostar has to slow down on the UK side and on the French side it travels faster, the 'banter' went onto 'maybe things are too slow in the UK' for us? - I think they're currently favouring Germany as a base to spearhead their expansion plans.

The recent announcement of foreign investment for the latest Nuclear power generation plant to be built. More 'noise' from the ones saying 'it should have been all British' - well, where are the knowledgeable, skilled and eager British workers and investors who could've done that?!

And one big bug bear in relation to people who want to work and push forwards is the aspect of sexism within the IT industry. My background is in this industry and I feel lucky and happy that each of my employers (just happened all 3 to be US companies!) had a fantastic mix of male/female staff with regards to the core careers/skills needed. I absolutely hate the fact I read about companies and their attitudes which denounce females in highly skilled careers. The UK on the whole now is a nation which generates (much of) it's wealth with a highly skilled labour force and in order to continue that, it needs to allow a culture of equality in order to best maximise either corporates or small/medium businesses to continue to export it's knowledge around the world and generate excellent amounts to the UK's GDP. Getting rid of this stupid, backwards sexist attitude would help - however I fear it'll take another dam 20 years for the mindset to change..

(you can also change the 'sexist' word in the paragraph above to 'ageist' as well!)
 
Sorry if that appears as bit of a rant - lately I've been talking quite a lot about this and similar aspects with various people both known to me personally and within industry contacts as well.

Cheers, DtM! West London & Slough UK!

This is probably true, but the UK, whether it likes it or not, must strive to hold itself to a higher standard. It is like Greece in the ancient world.

Newton was British, as was Wilberforce, Thomas Paine, Hume, Florence Nightingale, Locke, Mary Wollstonecraft, Bertrand Russel, etc., etc.

They (re?)invented reason and defined the modern human condition.

Really?? I would completely disagree with this!

Obviously not the bit about Newton et al being British, but about the UK having to hold itself to a higher standard. We're no different from any other country, and I think all countries should try to raise their standards. But why single out the UK?

You could just as easily say that da Vinci, Julius Caesar, Marco Polo, Vivaldi, Verdi, Columbus and the de Medicis were Italian, so Italy should hold itself to a higher standard.

You could just as easily say that da Vinci, Julius Caesar, Marco Polo, Vivaldi, Verdi, Columbus and the de Medicis were Italian, so Italy should hold itself to a higher standard.

They should!!

But I can only fix one at a time....and I may run out of time.

So we turn to some guy/girl who was perhaps rammed through some underfunded school, looked upon as a piece of crap since they were old enough to understand a scowl, tossed into a world where there are no jobs except for some crappy, zero hour, sit-by-the-phone nightmare, every ounce of dignity and self worth wrung out as he/she has a bit of the wrong accent, faced with going to a job centre which hasn't posted a position since that G4s privatized black hole of public expenditure took over and what do you expect?

Why don't they drive a van down through Chelsea telling those thieves we want our money back?

   Adults make choices in life.  Some good, some poor but they are the ones who make the decisions.  It is not helpful to constantly blame others for not succeeding in life.  Once you are an adult it is not your parents' fault, the fault of the boy who teased you at school, or the "horrible" banker's fault.  Life is what YOU choose to make out of the hand which is dealt to you! 

Adults make choices in life. 

This is true, but a lot of things in life are established before adulthood. Your skin colour for instance, or your gender, or the financial circumstance of the parents. The post code you are raised in. Your childhood nutrition.  Prenatal care. Access to quality health care. The education you receive in those magic years when the brain is exploding with growth. How we view ourselves in relation to society. Our genetic codes determine to a great degree our body types and hair colours and the flatness of our noses and the curl in our hair. The reinforcement systems that govern our brain's reward mechanisms are established very early. It is shown that our political and religious beliefs systems are deeply affected during childhood. Our accents and vocabulary.

These things happen before we are adults.

Dennis you and I aren't that far apart on many things. Technology is key. And I agree that we need to fast track technological development and make it our prime goal. We are living in an age of discovery unlike any seen before in the history of humankind. People are smarter now (they are really) and we have the physical tools to allow esoteric ideas to be translated into hard, usable outcomes (and discover a lot of cool stuff along the way).

My frustration perhaps centers on this as much as anything. We argue over minutia when the answers are right before us. 

There are a few things that boil me beyond sense about immigration.

1. We were given a hard time when we went to get DH legal in the USA.  We were the only English speaking couple there.....most NEITHER person, the immigrant or the sponsor, spoke English.  The way the US IO spoke to the translators or sponsors was far nicer than how they spoke to us.  It was almost as if they were disgusted that I married a man from a country that was just as well off as the US instead of trying to help out someone in a worse situation.  Not said to us, just how we were made to feel.  Immigration seems to be a problem all over the world.

2. I get that countries that are in the EU have a right to come here.  Totally understand that.  What I don't like is that EU citizens can bring their non-EU spouses over without a whole lot of scrutiny because they are "exercising their treaty rights".  No proof of means of support or adequate housing. Just pop over and stay.  I found that extremely frustrating when we were going through the process and under so much stress.  It would be nice if British citizens could bring their non-EU spouses and exercise their right to live with their spouse.  Shouldn't it be easier for a British person to bring their spouse to THEIR country than it is for a person from another country to bring their spouse to the UK???  This really baffles me.


I am all for immigration.  I believe (for the most part) that it enhances things.  My family were immigrants to the USA in the past.  Some of my favorite people are from all over the world.  We exchange recipes and stories.  I know my life is better for it. 

I too have had family and friends (on both sides of the pond) say harsh things about immigrants.....followed quickly by "oh not you guys"  but as someone pointed out earlier.....it does effect you.  DH will never be fully American (even tho he is a citizen) just as I will never be fully British.  I am starting to ignore people who class all immigrants in the same category.  They prove their ignorance by stereotyping then trying to exclude people around them who may be offended.  Think before you speak.

Anyway, I may have gotten of topic with my rambling but it feels ever so good to vent a bit.

   Adults make choices in life.  Some good, some poor but they are the ones who make the decisions.  It is not helpful to constantly blame others for not succeeding in life.  Once you are an adult it is not your parents' fault, the fault of the boy who teased you at school, or the "horrible" banker's fault.  Life is what YOU choose to make out of the hand which is dealt to you! 

Ah.  When life gives you lemons.........make a gin and tonic.  :p

Of course as adults we have the power to change our lives - to make them better.

That power also extends to the ability to make the lives of others better. 

There is also the responsibility to use our brains. 

We cannot sit in the comfort of our own circumstance and idly dismiss the poor circumstance of others by whiffing that they just haven't pulled themselves up hard enough.  If we do, that proves we haven't studied history or the human condition.

 
 

Really?? I would completely disagree with this!

Obviously not the bit about Newton et al being British, but about the UK having to hold itself to a higher standard. We're no different from any other country, and I think all countries should try to raise their standards. But why single out the UK?

You could just as easily say that da Vinci, Julius Caesar, Marco Polo, Vivaldi, Verdi, Columbus and the de Medicis were Italian, so Italy should hold itself to a higher standard.

But is it not true that developed nations SHOULD try to lead the way for the rest of the world?  In a good way and not through military power?

But is it not true that developed nations SHOULD try to lead the way for the rest of the world?  In a good way and not through military power?

Sure. I just didn't understand the singling out of the UK as if we're somehow different from any other developed nation.

  Adults make choices in life.  Some good, some poor but they are the ones who make the decisions.  It is not helpful to constantly blame others for not succeeding in life.  Once you are an adult it is not your parents' fault, the fault of the boy who teased you at school, or the "horrible" banker's fault.  Life is what YOU choose to make out of the hand which is dealt to you!  

There is so much that just does not work with this way of thinking and sonofsailor and rebeccajo covered a good portion of it for me.

Sure. I just didn't understand the singling out of the UK as if we're somehow different from any other developed nation.

Let's turn that around a bit. Instead of feeling 'singled out' by others....let's single ourselves out. Let's say, "We are going to have the fairest society", "We are going to have the best possible education system", "We are going to have the nation which treats its elderly far better than anyone else", "we make best use of our immigrants in a welcoming way", "try and catch us USA, China, Germany!", "We are a huge island full of achievement warriors!".

Why not?

What I don't like is that EU citizens can bring their non-EU spouses over without a whole lot of scrutiny because they are "exercising their treaty rights".  No proof of means of support or adequate housing. Just pop over and stay.

I am here on an EEA family permit, and I completely agree with you. I had to fill out all of the same forms, but I had no fees, I knew that it was more of a paperwork exercise than anything else, and I also knew that if things went wrong we were covered by international treaty law. The UK is hurting it's own citizens with this immigrant bashing!

But, as has been pointed out, it is much easier to say, "yes, we will crack down on immigrants and that will make it all better," than it is to say, "yes, we really messed this up, we need to restructure the transport/waterworks/housing code/benefits/NHS."

I would love for someone to do a graph which showed how much the NHS spends on immigrants and foreign visitors vs how much the NHS spends on booze related injuries and chronic disease.

I am here on an EEA family permit, and I completely agree with you. I had to fill out all of the same forms, but I had no fees, I knew that it was more of a paperwork exercise than anything else, and I also knew that if things went wrong we were covered by international treaty law. The UK is hurting it's own citizens with this immigrant bashing!

But, as has been pointed out, it is much easier to say, "yes, we will crack down on immigrants and that will make it all better," than it is to say, "yes, we really messed this up, we need to restructure the transport/waterworks/housing code/benefits/NHS."

I would love for someone to do a graph which showed how much the NHS spends on immigrants and foreign visitors vs how much the NHS spends on booze related injuries and chronic disease.

I think I read somewhere that the EEA permit was free but if you wanted your non EEA spouse to work, you filled out another form which costs £59.  I am all for EEA members exercising their treaty rights....but non EEA spouses of EEA members should have to go through the same visa process as non EEA spouses of citizens.  It shouldn't be easier for non citizens. 

So annoying. And I still get stick from the odd person about how the UK is too full of immigrants.  Actually heard 2 couples at dinner the other night complaining about it.  Both husbands and 1 wife were Polish and one of the wives were American.  They made a comment about how I shouldn't be allowed in the country as it was already full.  I was a little shocked....to say the least. 

Oh well, I fought hard to get here....I am not gonna let them, or anyone else, spoil it for me....