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Topic: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans  (Read 6420 times)

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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 03:56:46 PM »
My biggest question is how does it affect those of us living here on visas? Will we have to go through visa applications & fees all over again, or will they honour the existing UK visas? Other than that, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. I know a little about Scottish history from 500yrs ago, but I don't know/understand enough about recent history to understand the implication and consequences of an Independent Scotland.


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 04:30:12 PM »
My biggest question is how does it affect those of us living here on visas? Will we have to go through visa applications & fees all over again, or will they honour the existing UK visas? Other than that, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. I know a little about Scottish history from 500yrs ago, but I don't know/understand enough about recent history to understand the implication and consequences of an Independent Scotland.

Chapter 7: Justice, Security and Home Affairs

Quote
Scotland's differing demographic and migration needs mean that the current UK immigration system has not supported Scotland's migration priorities. The current Westminster approach is strongly focused on reducing the overall number of migrants and introducing caps for certain categories of skilled individuals. In April 2012, the Westminster Government stopped the post-study work visa, which allowed recent graduates to work or set up a business in the UK for 24 months thus retaining skilled and educated graduates as part of the UK labour force. Westminster has also set financial maintenance thresholds for most migrants at a standard level across the UK despite variations in average earnings. With independence, each of these decisions will be for Scottish governments, with policy choices made on the basis of Scotland's needs and priorities.

Quote
We plan to continue in the current Common Travel Area with the rest of the UK and Ireland so there will be no need for border checks between an independent Scotland and England.

As a full member of the EU, Scottish borders will remain open to EU nationals exercising their treaty rights, just as Scots are free now to move throughout the EU.

For non-EU nationals, independence will enable us to develop and operate a controlled, transparent and efficient immigration system. This Government will take forward a points-based approach targeted at particular Scottish requirements... 

We plan to lower the current financial maintenance thresholds and minimum salary levels for entry, to better align them with Scottish average wages and cost of living. This will open up greater opportunities for key skilled individuals from overseas who could play important roles in our society and economy and fill vital vacancies in individual businesses.

This Government plans to reintroduce the post-study work visa. This visa will encourage more talented people from around the world to further their education in Scotland, providing income for Scotland's education institutions and contributing to the local economy and community diversity.


Following independence, other people will be able to apply for Scottish citizenship. For example, citizenship by descent will be available to those who have a parent or grandparent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship. Those who have a demonstrable connection to Scotland and have spent at least ten years living here at some stage, whether as a child or an adult, will also have the opportunity to apply for citizenship. Migrants on qualifying visas will also have the option of applying for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen.

The UK allows dual or multiple citizenship for British citizens. If a British citizen acquires citizenship and a passport of another country, this does not affect their British citizenship, right to hold a British passport or right to live in the UK. The Scottish Government will also allow dual citizenship. It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish citizenship, but we expect the normal rules to extend to Scottish citizens.


There's also a handy table outlining who gets citizenship and when/how.  Based this information, I would expect that any existing visas would be 'transferred'/continued in Scotland for the duration, at which point the visa holder would then apply for a renewal or naturalisation in line with whatever laws the elected Scottish government puts in place.  And based on this paper, I feel a lot more hopeful about those laws than about the direction of immigration law Westminster is taking.


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2013, 06:05:53 PM »
I would seriously consider moving to Scotland if they vote for independence, the thought that we will just keep getting majority Tory governments fills me with dread and what that will do to the NHS.

Please stay with us!
"We don't want our chocolate to get cheesy!"


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2013, 06:10:21 PM »
My biggest question is how does it affect those of us living here on visas? Will we have to go through visa applications & fees all over again, or will they honour the existing UK visas? Other than that, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. I know a little about Scottish history from 500yrs ago, but I don't know/understand enough about recent history to understand the implication and consequences of an Independent Scotland.

I shouldn't start to worry yet.  Even if the vote is a "yes" it won't happen until 2016.  Plenty of time after the vote to get sorted with visas.
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2013, 06:40:07 PM »
I don't actually see ho wit could affect your visa. You have a visa for the UK, not specifically for Scotland, so firstly a Scottish government could not overturn that, at worst they could say you have to move to UK. However, as they are staying within in the EU then as a legal resident of an EU country you would be able to live in Scotland.
"We don't want our chocolate to get cheesy!"


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 10:38:11 AM »
TykeMan, the Scottish vote has almost never prevented Tories getting into power. http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

By the way, the blog I linked to, Wings Over Scotland, is really excellent for analysis. If anyone who will be eligible to vote is looking for more information, start there.
Arrived as student 9/2003; Renewed student visa 9/2006; Applied for HSMP approval 1/2008; HSMP approved 3/2008; Tier 1 General FLR received 4/2008; FLR(M) Unmarried partner approved (in-person) 27/8/2009; ILR granted at in-person PEO appointment 1/8/2011; Applied for citizenship at Edinburgh NCS 31/10/2011; Citizenship approval received 4/2/2012
FINALLY A CITIZEN! 29/2/2012


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 11:08:40 AM »
Super,

"and on ONE occasion (2010) the presence of Scottish MPs has deprived the Conservatives of an outright majority, although the Conservatives ended up in control of the government anyway in coalition with the Lib Dems."

When we are dealing with the kinds of let/right splits we are seeing just a few seats can mean a great deal (see the focus on marginals).

I think you guys should vote as you feel. And there is more to it than numbers and stats and stuff.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 11:59:40 AM »
I posted that story in direct response to TykeMan's plea not to leave so the Tories wouldn't be in forever. In reality, Labour in the modern era have only gotten into government by being more right wing themselves. Quite frankly, when it comes to Westminster, there is no left-right split, only right, more right and slightly less right.
I also don't really agree with voting based on sentiment. That's the kind of big N nationalism that the Yes movement has studiously avoided, while the No side has been all Union Jack waving, we-fought-the-Nazis-together, wouldn't-it-be-sad-if-Scots-were-foreigners stuff that makes me really uncomfortable. I'm voting on the principle that Scotland is a nation with a right to self-determination, that the union no longer works for Scotland, and that union was entered into without the people having been consulted in the first place, and was therefore undemocratic to start. TykeMan, you'd be more than welcome! Check out these guys, you might like them ;)
Arrived as student 9/2003; Renewed student visa 9/2006; Applied for HSMP approval 1/2008; HSMP approved 3/2008; Tier 1 General FLR received 4/2008; FLR(M) Unmarried partner approved (in-person) 27/8/2009; ILR granted at in-person PEO appointment 1/8/2011; Applied for citizenship at Edinburgh NCS 31/10/2011; Citizenship approval received 4/2/2012
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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2013, 06:39:22 PM »
Super, you are right (I haven't felt the same about Labour since the demise of Clause IV) and I shouldn't even be commenting on Scotland. I am studying the site.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2013, 02:11:43 PM »
Hi,

Currently, I don't think that an Independent Scotland has enough industry to keep and maintain it's current levels of GDP over the long term/next 10,25 and 50 years.

No one has a crystal ball of course, but perhaps it is possible to go independent, look after around 5 million people of it's population, even if Scotland's main economic industry sectors which generate wealth were to decline (and in the case of North Sea oil & gas, continue to decline as it already is) and no new profitable, long term industries were found to replace it/them.

If I was in Scotland, I'd be voting no.

Cheers, DtM! West London & Slough UK!





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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2013, 09:01:47 PM »
Fortunately you're not in Scotland.
Scotland has plenty going for it besides oil and gas, including renewable energy, scientific research, tourism and whisky to name just a few. Without paying for nuclear weapons, imperialist military operations and Westminster MPs, it's amazing the money that's freed up to invest in your people.
Arrived as student 9/2003; Renewed student visa 9/2006; Applied for HSMP approval 1/2008; HSMP approved 3/2008; Tier 1 General FLR received 4/2008; FLR(M) Unmarried partner approved (in-person) 27/8/2009; ILR granted at in-person PEO appointment 1/8/2011; Applied for citizenship at Edinburgh NCS 31/10/2011; Citizenship approval received 4/2/2012
FINALLY A CITIZEN! 29/2/2012


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2013, 10:43:59 PM »
Hi,

Currently, I don't think that an Independent Scotland has enough industry to keep and maintain it's current levels of GDP over the long term/next 10,25 and 50 years.

No one has a crystal ball of course, but perhaps it is possible to go independent, look after around 5 million people of it's population, even if Scotland's main economic industry sectors which generate wealth were to decline (and in the case of North Sea oil & gas, continue to decline as it already is) and no new profitable, long term industries were found to replace it/them.

If I was in Scotland, I'd be voting no.

Cheers, DtM! West London & Slough UK!





I think this says it all:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/bt1979.jpg

Scotland may be lacking in some types of industry.  So is the rest of the U.K., and indeed, the rest of the developed world! 

You know what isn't going to fix the situation?  Remaining in the U.K.

None of us has a crystal ball, that's true.  I don't know if things are going to get instantly better just because we're independent;  frankly, I doubt it.  I imagine there will be a few bumps along the way, and maybe it'll fail spectacularly after all.  But if it does, it'll be due to decisions Scotland and Scottish voters have made on their own, and it'll be up to us to sort it out. 

I am in Scotland, and I'll be (citizenship application willing) voting Yes.


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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2013, 01:08:57 PM »
Hi,

Scotland does indeed have other industry sectors which contribute to it's wealth generation, those you mentioned are the ones I was also referring to.

Here's the website I'm looking at which gives Scotlands main industry sectors

http://www.scotland.org/about-scotland/business-and-economy/key-industries

Looking at the exports page, the workforce page and just generally around the site, it's  impressive, shows Scotland at it's best and that indeed translates into providing confidence to people who may not know too much about the place overall. I've only had the chance to visit 3 times and had a great impression overall upon each visit, I've worked with people from Scotland and asked about their views etc and recently, for my own business objectives, have actually been in touch with some of the Electronics industry specialists mentioned in the website!

So, it's easy to see how and why there is a significant amount of support for a Yes vote including you both, Woadgrrl and DrSuperL99 ! As mentioned, when you are independent, you wouldn't have to channel some of your money into funding those nuclear weapons, westmister MP's and military operations and other public service departments as currently exist by being a part of a union.

However, on the flip side and away from the fanfare of the elements above, the more 'boring' aspects need to be considered. This is what will make up a complete picture.

If the supporters of independence want to vote yes, then be just that - BE Independent. This means forming your own government, government departments, currency, army, health service, welfare state, create and distribute your own wealth etc etc. Act on the world stage and form your own alliances, trade partner countries and look to attract investment.

Just taking one aspect of the above for example - Defence. How will an independent Scotland defend itself and it's citizens? how much of it's budget will it allocate to such activities? who will Scotland look towards in forming any allies ? will it stick to conventional weapons or consider it's own nuclear arsenal? on a more basic level, out of it's 5 million population, how many of them will it want to recruit to various defence related areas?

You can ask that and more for many of the other daily life aspects that a country will need to provide for itself.

So to put that all into perspective, out of approx 5 million people how many are of working age 17-65? how many are of retired, pensionable age? how many are infants, schoolchildren and/or college/university age? - just take one element there, people of working age. How many are there? perhaps between 1.5-2 million? breaking that down, how many are highly skilled, how many have specific or partial skills? how many are unskilled and how many choose to be unemployed or economically inactive? Can an Army, air force, Navy, Police service, Fire service all be suitably provided for the entire country from that pool of available working age people?

Again, you could ask the same for other daily required departments and services the country as a whole requires - health, schools and education, local council and government etc etc.

I suspect, there isn't enough available workforce to create the various departments required by the country as a whole for the basics to be covered. What would happen then in the case of not enough people saying they wish to be in the armed forces? will Scotland then make it compulsory for everyone from age 16-25 participate in active service duty for the country? or will it seek to recruit from abroad?

Ask similar questions for the healthcare department - are there enough doctors, nurses, health specialists, hospitals and the funding required to run them all properly and effectively?  ask the same for the various other departments, roads and infrastructure, education and schooling etc etc.

Again, I suspect there isn't enough in the workforce pool to cover the basics a country would need.

I currently remain of the view that I fear for Scotland being independent and longer term seeing it go into decline or fail- I'd rather have Scotland as part of the united kingdom to better increase the current union's chances of climbing out of the current economic woes quicker. I consider it a 'family' if you will, and when things get tough, family often pulls together to help everyone out as best they can. Things are very tough overall for the UK at the moment, and I'd say there's better chances of pulling through and quicker if Scotland was to remain a part of the union. If however the vote does go to a yes, then it should be just that - be Independent. I think currently there's talk of keeping the English Pound as it's currency or consider joining the EuroDollar - I'd say for Scotland to then form its own. There's a potential big mess into deciding how much of the debt the UK as a whole currently carries which should be allocated to an independent Scotland, so that would need to be decided and it'd be up to independent Scotland to sort it out/pay for it.

There's so many aspects to this, and of course it's difficult to type it all up here and each aspect is open to individual evaluation and thoughts. I know not everyone will share mine or other's views, and will have their own opinion, I just mention the above from what I currently think. I'm sure, if I looked at some aspects in much greater detail my view could change, perhaps the leaders for the YES vote have indeed got their sums correct etc. - I don't know.

It'd be quite sad though, to see what will likely happen if the leaders of the Yes vote have got their sums wrong and they do convince a majority yes vote in less than a years time.

Lastly, from the above - I'm not looking to wind anyone up or be argumentative etc, It's a sensitive and difficult subject and will be the focus of many discussions from everyone, I'm simply looking here on UKY for a discussion on it.

Cheers, DtM! West London & Slough UK!



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Re: Scottish Governemnt releases White Paper outlining independence plans
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2013, 02:04:27 PM »
Well now you have me wondering why on earth/under what conditions an independent Scotland would feel the need for nuclear weapons. Has anyone proposed that?
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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