Seeking Advice from current American Expats in London

Hello everyone,

My name is Mo. I am a US citizen and a recent graduate from university in London. I will be receiving an undergraduate uk and us degree. I want to ultimately work in London. I have 1 job offer from an investment bank with an interesting scheme. A 3 month paid 30K per rota internship, then discussion of a full time job and  employment at the end of the second month. In the US, i have a full time employment offer in same field with a competing company. I am contemplating what to do. I want to stay in London, but the scheme is risky, if they do not offer me a job and I have to return back to the states and start over again in terms of job search. What salary would you suggest is best for an american to live comfortably in London at my age and in my situation? What is your advice on staying in London now with this opp vs coming back post work in the US? Difficulty level vs options available? Also in which field is easiest?

Really appreciate any feedback!!

Not sure I can help you regarding the salary in this field or anything but I will say it's EXPENSIVE living in London. It's expensive even just commuting to London but you will be far better off living outside the city and commuting inward, I assure you, unless you fancy having a very small but affordable living space [at least from what I've seen and the people I know who moved to or away from London].

I would strongly suggest checking out someplace like Rightmove to see what rental properties are like in certain boroughs [particularly the one where you'd want to be residing in] to get an idea of cpw or cpm. Then, budget a few hundred for groceries, bills, and a social life [as you will need at least a small one or you won't be happy! ESPECIALLY living in London] and see how much that tallys up to and work from there wen thinking about what kind of Salary you'd be okay taking. Don't forget to calculate like 20% extra each month for tax. If nothing else, you have a good starting point.

Hi Mo,

I know you are asking for advice, but ultimately, from what you've provided in information so far, no one will be able to 'tell' you as such what to do. If you want to live and work in London, then I'd say go for the Internship and see what happens - in 2 months time, you'll know if you have an offer of a permanent job from them. Speak to the US employer offering you a position and see if they might be able to hold it till then?

You've not mentioned your age, but I'd also say like KissOfDeath mentions above, it's very very expensive to live in London on a general level. Also, even if you are super frugal, it's still an expensive place to live, so as I've mentioned in many threads in the past on this forum, you'll 'most likely' need to give up or compromise on various aspects that you only know about your lifestyle and what you are accustomed to. For instance, used to eating out 3/4 times a week? you might need to curtail that to a maximum of twice. Used to a gym membership with all the options, you might need to curtail that to a more basic membership, and so forth.

As you've not mentioned which degree you have, I'll assume it's something to do with Financials. If so, then as the UK economy continues to slowly recover, then do keep looking in this sector if it interests you. I used to work for a US consultancy based in London and I was installed at Morgan Stanley on the IT Infrastructure department - do I want to get back into it? ..  nope, not really, there were a LOT of financial IT specialists like me who were laid off in 2008 and many aren't interested in going back in. On the 'business' side of investment banking, then the industry in my opinion for jobs is extremely fickle, when things are going well, there's all the usual back slapping and spending going on, as soon as there's any hint of 'issues' ahead, you get slung out (a bit of a generalisation I must admit!) I only had 3 financial IT roles in my career over the years and each was for an American software house / financial IT consultancy and I found the 'redundancy' thing even more cut throat than perhaps what 'most' British people are used to.

Other business sectors could be worthwhile looking into, I don't know what your interests are. As mentioned above, only you know your lifestyle so look at what you are being offered and see if the bank will say what you 'could' be likely to earn if given a full time job at the end of the internship to help you plan on where to look to live/rent/commute costs/living costs etc.

Lastly, I'd say stay in the US, take the job being offered, get some good experience for a few years and then look to move to London or elsewhere in the world.

Cheers DtM! West London & Slough UK!

Also, even if you are super frugal, it's still an expensive place to live, so as I've mentioned in many threads in the past on this forum, you'll 'most likely' need to give up or compromise on various aspects that you only know about your lifestyle and what you are accustomed to. For instance, used to eating out 3/4 times a week? you might need to curtail that to a maximum of twice. Used to a gym membership with all the options, you might need to curtail that to a more basic membership, and so forth.

This. Definitely this. Even if you are used to being more frugal, more sacrifices will likely need to be made. I was thinking even less than what was mentioned above [I.E. maybe eating out once a week unless there are special occasions or something. Even when cooking, be careful of where you are shopping and keep an eye out for deals. That type of thing... With the gym, if all the gyms are expensive, get the basic package or just go for a run and buy some second hand weights yourself [I don't live in London and my husband and I bought our own set of weights and a weight bench second hand as it worked out a hell of a lot cheaper than a year's membership to a gym]. Will work out cheaper over the long run than paying to use somebody else's equipment. That is just my opinion though as I've never lived in London myself, just relying on the people I know who do live there currently and my experience of going into the city on nights out, etc. You may get paid more than those I know that live there so you may not need to make quite so many sacrifices, although I find it's better to expect the worse and be pleasantly surprised when it's better than you think! Would definitely just think about What types of things you've grown accustomed to and which of those are considered luxuries. Out of those luxuries, which are you prepared to make sacrifices on and what are the sacrifices you'd be okay making in a worse case scenario? [I.E. cutting down or going without?]. Think as well that if it's an internship, you may not be making as much as you want at first.

when things are going well, there's all the usual back slapping and spending going on, as soon as there's any hint of 'issues' ahead, you get slung out (a bit of a generalisation I must admit!) I only had 3 financial IT roles in my career over the years and each was for an American software house / financial IT consultancy and I found the 'redundancy' thing even more cut throat than perhaps what 'most' British people are used to.

Don't think this is necessarily a US vs UK thing though. I think it's more to do with a company that is based in another country having financial issues and trying to pull together a contingency plan. They aren't going to make layoffs in their main base/country, I would assume they'd be more likely to pull out of the other countries they've invested interest in first to protect itself in the country of origin. But that may just be my line of thinking. I think it would likely be the same if a Global UK company started losing money - they would likely want to make layoffs abroad [unless they've decided to outsource as a last resource] instead of reducing numbers in their home country.

Lastly, I'd say stay in the US, take the job being offered, get some good experience for a few years and then look to move to London or elsewhere in the world.

I think I would have to say the opposite on this. I would say you should take the opportunity to experience London while you're young. You may love it or hate it, but you won't know until you try. You could get the internship and decide London isn't even for you but know that it is only for the duration of a few months so find the ability to pull through - although I'm assuming that because you currently attend Uni there, you have friends and a life and know that it's a place you'd be happy. It's pretty much a gamble so my advice would be to think about the "what if" scenario. Will you be more upset if you are looking back thinking "what if I hadn't gone to London" or "What if I had just done it"?? Normally I would say there are plenty of jobs waiting back home for you but London might be a once in a lifetime experience. The more you put it off, the harder it may be to get a similar opportunity - mainly because you are coming out of a UK university with connections, etc, and once you go back to the US for a bit, it may be more difficult to land an opportunity back in London. Personally, I would think that while you are young, you should seize the opportunity to be somewhere else - before you have a family, home, developed career, etc. that will tie you down to one specific place and create a bigger issue to uproot from. But that is just me and how my approach to life would be in your situation. Many people might think it's safer to play it opposite and I've never been one to take the "safer" road. 

Good luck with whatever you decide! Keep us updated!

Hi KissOfDeath,

I take your comments onboard and I can understand where you are coming from for sure. No one has had experience of every scenario and every company culture and anything else between the USA and UK etc - on this forum, most people give their personal experiences - including myself.

I tend to find that 'overall' by listening to many different viewpoints and feedback and stories etc from many people you get to build up a picture. I've been lucky enough to 'build' on those by working for 3 USA companies as well as having a lot of extended family in the USA (I'm Indian, so we have super extended families!) lots of their friends and my own friends as well as now ex work colleagues as well as in more recent years, more independent friends I've met out there as well as business level contacts - so a whole cross section of people.

American Companies that have a UK presence are plenty. What tends to happen is the USA company will open a 'specific' UK registered entity and of course have UK people work there. The 'culture' then is more UK orientated. The 'company' is owned by the USA parent company and directives come in from the parent company. In each of my 'redundancies' from those 3 that I worked for, the UK company was profitable and seemingly things were going ok/good. On my 2nd redundancy, I was shocked but not as much as other's within the company. The reason given in that scenario was the parent company wanted to focus on one product line/sector and was willing to let the other two go. It's not always about 'financial issues' to have to make layoffs. When I was in Canary Wharf, I do recall one of the 'big' USA guys flying in and calling a meeting. Everyone was on their best behaviour and all that. Things were apparently going well too. Many of the people in the room perhaps weren't used to some of the 'direct' ways USA corporate culture is portrayed and he did mention as a very matter of factly 'if things don't quite turn out the way we'd like, I have no issue in shuttering the project' - the looks around the room I understood right away, and after the meeting, in private conversations - I did say to some people 'yes, that means we'll be out of a job'. That was early 2008, I don't have to remind you what happened to the worlds and UK economy around 6 months later ! the 'other' consulting company went from a headcount of 30 people to 3 overnight. The consultancy I was with meant myself and the other contractor were let go and only the ultra brain box contractor remained. Our consultancy had more influence than the other one.

For your next point, again I can understand how you'd say that - and there's nothing wrong with it at all!

I remember many many USA staff coming to the UK to live here and experience more than the USA. Their ages varied from 'young' as you say, all the way through to people in every age decade - 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's. Junior staff, specialist staff, management - all came over to live and experience. Some absolutely loved it and stayed, other's VERY quickly found it way way more expensive that they'd imagined and legged it back to the USA as quick as a plane could take them.

What I did find is that regardless of age, people of have the great ability to try - you don't have to be 'young' only. Nowadays with the economy in the UK as it is, the beyond ridiculous housing situation in the Capital and South East, it's becoming ever more difficult to live with a view to improving your quality of life. Yes, with jobs in the right industry, working hard and being able to progress in career and pay levels, you can indeed live and enjoy very well, however, the vast majority of people no matter how they 'appear' to be living well, simply aren't and are living pay check to pay check each month.

The UK has less earning potential, less well paying jobs in every industry sector, a lower standard of living and a lower quality of living than the USA. So nowadays, it's much more difficult to get to the levels where you can be above the averages in those indices.

Lastly, each of the points above can have many more views and thoughts, all of which are true and indicative of how things are in the UK. Many UKY members will have some of those views. I just like to mention things on a more general level along with being able (mostly!) to drill down to personal experience levels too. The initial post by benjakan is more higher level based and this discussion I hope will help in the evaluations that I saw many people not do properly in the past when they came here and subsequently hot footed it back to the US relatively quickly!

Cheers, DtM! West London & Slough UK!

What salary would you suggest is best for an american to live comfortably in London at my age and in my situation? What is your advice on staying in London now with this opp vs coming back post work in the US? Difficulty level vs options available? Also in which field is easiest?

Hi Mo,

To answer some of your questions, I don't think your nationality impacts what you might call living comfortably in London.  You've not indicated your age, but if you followed the typical path of "finish highschool, go to college/uni", I'll assume that you're in your early-mid 20's.

An annual salary of £30k is manageable --It will most likely mean you'll be sharing a place with others.  Lots of young professionals do house-shares, and given that the internship is only 3 months to start with -- this would be the perfect situation for you, as house-shares are a bit more flexible than having to sign a 1 year lease up front.  So £30k pro-rated for 3 months works out to about £2k take home each month after taxes are considered (http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php).  If you spend around £900/month on rent/counciltax/bills, you still have £1000 each month for everything else.

I can't advise what you personally should do, and don't fully understand what visa you're presently on.  If you're here as a student, and are eligible for the internship because of your UK-degree, if you do decide to leave for the US and come back at a later time-- you may find that you're no longer eligible for the work visa, because your corporate sponsor would have to prove that no one else in the whole of the EU is qualified to perform the role that you'd be undertaking (has to do with the resident labour market test -- as a student with a UK degree, you're exempt from this requirement)

I'm afraid I also can't say what field is "easiest" -- I assume by "easiest" you mean to ask what industry provides the most options to be sponsored for work visas here, but I honestly do not know the answer to this.  There's always a job Shortage List, but this is always subject to change, and if I were you, I would base my career decisions on what interests me rather than what's easy-- because even if it's easy, you might hate it -- and you don't want to do something that you hate for the next 40+ years.

For what it's worth, money-wise -- my OH and I earn a combined income a bit more than double what you'd be earning (but it's taken us 4 years to get to this point!)  We currently live in a 1 bed flat in a nice part of town (N5) and spend around £1,500 pcm on rent/council tax/bills.  We go out for dinner together at least once/week, but also meet up with friends for a meal a few times a month.  We each probably spend around £5-8 each on coffee/breakfast/lunch each working day.  We also do a European city break every few months, and this year we're both having to fly to the US twice this year -- But we still manage to save £1,000 each month.  We moved from Nottingham to London four years ago on just his annual salary of £23k and managed to make it work for two of us -- so £30k for one person is definitely feasible if you're realistic about what you can/can't afford.

Hi Dennis,

Apologies if I misunderstand or pick up implications that aren't there in your writing, but I think you might have actually gotten the wrong end of the stick in what I was writing and actually took it WAY too personal....I was merely giving an opposing view to what you had written as I think the OP should consider things from all different angles. I was not saying that you were wrong, just giving another view on what you had said. Genuinely hope you didn't take it as a personal attack.

To comment on your response:

American Companies that have a UK presence are plenty. What tends to happen is the USA company will open a 'specific' UK registered entity and of course have UK people work there. The 'culture' then is more UK orientated. The 'company' is owned by the USA parent company and directives come in from the parent company. In each of my 'redundancies' from those 3 that I worked for, the UK company was profitable and seemingly things were going ok/good. On my 2nd redundancy, I was shocked but not as much as other's within the company. The reason given in that scenario was the parent company wanted to focus on one product line/sector and was willing to let the other two go. It's not always about 'financial issues' to have to make layoffs. When I was in Canary Wharf, I do recall one of the 'big' USA guys flying in and calling a meeting. Everyone was on their best behaviour and all that. Things were apparently going well too. Many of the people in the room perhaps weren't used to some of the 'direct' ways USA corporate culture is portrayed and he did mention as a very matter of factly 'if things don't quite turn out the way we'd like, I have no issue in shuttering the project' - the looks around the room I understood right away, and after the meeting, in private conversations - I did say to some people 'yes, that means we'll be out of a job'. That was early 2008, I don't have to remind you what happened to the worlds and UK economy around 6 months later ! the 'other' consulting company went from a headcount of 30 people to 3 overnight. The consultancy I was with meant myself and the other contractor were let go and only the ultra brain box contractor remained. Our consultancy had more influence than the other one.

Firstly, it might just be that in the US, you can lay people off easier than you can here in the UK. It takes A LOT to be able to fire or lay somebody off, even if they aren't performing, which seems crazy to me  as I've worked with several people here in the UK that basically couldn't be fired even though they should have been [and would've been in the US]. There's definitely a lot of differences that need to be considered on this one. The US execs seem to just be more direct and blunt about certain situations including the "lack of performing and he won't hesitate to shut down the operation" type deal. From my personal experience, a UK higher-up can't say those kind of things as it's just a lawsuit in waiting over unfairness in the workplace - maybe the end game is the same it's just a different approach by the US and UK? As mentioned in my original post, I have no experience in these type of roles though as I've never worked in that industry so perhaps it's just different by nature because of the type of job it is. Secondly, is there a chance that perhaps it's because your experiences were in a contracting role? I always find it's easier for them to let contractors go which is why I was soo keen on moving to a permanent position myself. After working for the same Global-level company as both a contractor and now permanent staff, I see such a HUGE difference and gap in how you're treated by the business. Contractors seem to be more expendable in general vs perms and aren't as included in the activities. Being in a non-perm role, even if it's a rolling contract, might be why you've felt it was easier being laid off and it was just unfortunate that they were for US-based companies? This is just a guess though based on my personal experiences [you could literally turn around and say that you've only ever contracted and never been laid off by UK companies and that would disprove that theory  ]

I remember many many USA staff coming to the UK to live here and experience more than the USA. Their ages varied from 'young' as you say, all the way through to people in every age decade - 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's. Junior staff, specialist staff, management - all came over to live and experience.

What I did find is that regardless of age, people of have the great ability to try - you don't have to be 'young' only. Nowadays with the economy in the UK as it is, the beyond ridiculous housing situation in the Capital and South East, it's becoming ever more difficult to live with a view to improving your quality of life. Yes, with jobs in the right industry, working hard and being able to progress in career and pay levels, you can indeed live and enjoy very well, however, the vast majority of people no matter how they 'appear' to be living well, simply aren't and are living pay check to pay check each month.

I agree with the points you're making to a degree but I'm not sure if you are talking about more recent years when you are saying you are remembering or if it's more years back. From my understanding, coming here just to work really pretty much isn't an option if you are coming from the US. Also, I wouldn't say people coming from the US are trying to make a better life for themselves, I think it's just about experiences life abroad but taking an easier approach as we speak the same language [a lot more difficult to try to move, live, and work in somewhere you don't understand the language like Spain or Italy]. You have to be able to get a company to sponsor you which is pretty rare as they have to pay for your sponsorship I believe AND they need to be able to prove that nobody can do the job to the same degree/at all in country and that they've HAD to take you on because you are specialized. My expat friend that works in the same country as me is on a work visa and it's because her job is specialized and moving her internally worked out fine as long as she moved to a head office [there are only a few throughout the world so she picked UK as it was the most convenient]. She can only be here for 2 years max before needing to re-apply but if she didn't do something so specific, she wouldn't have been granted access. If you are thinking of years ago, potentially it was easier as I think they only made the rules stricter in the last few years - I know that for spousal visas but not sure about working ones. Because the US and the UK are so similar, I think people just hope to maintain the same lifestyle, not necessarily improve it [at least out of the US expats that I've spoken to] the GBP is stronger than the USD so already they wouldn't be coming here to a good start. I live in the south about 30 minute train from London and I definitely feel the sting of how expensive everything is. My husband and I do well at cutting corners where we can and saving as much as we can and it's worked out in our favour but I think London prices are just unfortunately high because they can be [because usually Salary is higher in London].

Basically I was merely stating that I would prefer to get the traveling done while I was younger, with less attachments in life. It's also because the OP has the connections and experiences now, he may not get another opportunity to come back over again because of how difficult it can be to get a work visa - but that is just my personal experiences and thoughts. I could be 100% wrong. I think it would be wrong to give a person false hope that it's easy to just get jobs on this side of the pond. Again, it might be easy in this particular role and I just have no idea.

The UK has less earning potential, less well paying jobs in every industry sector, a lower standard of living and a lower quality of living than the USA. So nowadays, it's much more difficult to get to the levels where you can be above the averages in those indices.

I'm not sure where you've gotten your facts on this one - could you please share? I find this topic quite interesting because I actually think it's the opposite. One major example is hospitality. bar staff and waitstaff in the US 99% of the time work for tips and over here they are paid a salary. I've had quite the opposite experience as you've stated above and at the age of 25 I have been able to earn and achieve a better living than I ever would've been able to in the US and am probably doing better than most people I know back in the US that are between my age and 30. Perhaps it's because you were in a different part of the US to where I was from and that is what is giving the drastic difference in experiences? I think, because the US is so large compared to the UK, that it's likely to change your opinion depending on where you've been/lived/seen in the US which is why I was wondering if you could share the statistics you found to say the above [I love looking at those kinds of comparisons  ]