American - UK Resident - Social Security Benefits after retirement

- apparently his eligibility for this spousal pension isn't affected by the fact that he's been married and divorced again since he and I split up.

Ooops, like nun, I'm having a bad day today. I completely missed your obvious reference to an "ex" in your previous post.

I have no idea what happens for an ex. My comments were aimed for those still married and living with their UK spouse. Sorry. 

No worries.  According to the pamphlet at http://www.ssa.gov/international/Agreement_Pamphlets/uk.html spouse and ex are treated pretty much the same.

I reckon if I can stay alive for another eight years I'll recoup the renunciation fee.   

Might take less than eight years.  Looks like a totalization benefit does not get WEP'd. 
https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0201701300

So I've had the telephone interview for my application for SS pension under the Totalisation Agreement, and today I received the printed, partly-completed application form ready for me to sign and return.

Unfortunately, although I explained that I had recently expatriated, they've put my citizenship as "US" which not only is not correct but also means the application as it stands cannot be approved since it requires sight of a valid US passport.   

On top of that, they're apparently changing my name on my Social Security number, and I don't know if that's going to be looked at askance by the IRS, as I've already submitted FBARs using the existing name (my maiden name).   

In addition, the printed summary of the telephone interview includes the following:

I am entitled to or I expect to become entitled to a pension or annuity based in whole or in part on work after 1956 not covered by Social Security.

I'm not sure if this means

(a) that I misinterpreted GN 01701.300 and WEP does apply in my case, or

(b) if it's just information that has to be included for all applications and if not applicable does not affect the calculation. 

Probably (a).   

Unfortunately, although I explained that I had recently expatriated, they've put my citizenship as "US" which not only is not correct but also means the application as it stands cannot be approved since it requires sight of a valid US passport.   

On top of that, they're apparently changing my name on my Social Security number, and I don't know if that's going to be looked at askance by the IRS, as I've already submitted FBARs using the existing name (my maiden name).

Since 2004 (or 2008?), there are 2 types of US Citizenship. The first relates to your immigration/naturalisation status (born in the USA!) under the Dept. of State rules for citizenship. The second is the definition of a US Citizen as defined in the IRS (the Code) rules. Which are you referring to? For US Social Security, I would guess it's the first, but being a US citizen is not a requirement for receiving US SS, as you know.

As I remember, you can correct mistakes on the form itself, or call the number on the form for clarification. Whatever the outcome, as a UK resident, it shouldn't alter your right to SS.   

In addition, the printed summary of the telephone interview includes the following:
I'm not sure if this means

(a) that I misinterpreted GN 01701.300 and WEP does apply in my case, or

(b) if it's just information that has to be included for all applications and if not applicable does not affect the calculation. 

Probably (a).

You have, or will have, a UK Local Authority pension. Your US SS will be WEP'ed once you are in receipt of it. You also have a UK State Pension with Class 1 contributions(?). With respect for the post from robnw, the SSA may still deem that to require an application of WEP.

It doesn't matter what definition of citizen is being used - an application from a US citizen requires a US passport.  They'll have to re-do the application showing my citizenship as UK.

WEP doesn't apply to totalisation benefits except under certain circumstances which I thought did not apply in my case but very likely I was misinterpreting the rules.

WEP doesn't apply to totalisation benefits except under certain circumstances which I thought did not apply in my case but very likely I was misinterpreting the rules.

I always understood Totalisation benefits to be the credits used from one system which, when considered, enabled the second system, which suffered from an insufficient number of qualification years, to qualify for a benefit. That is the only use of Totalisation credits. They do not count towards the pension amount.

The number of years/quarters already in the UK system are the only ones that count towards the actual pension amount, and are the only ones used for a WEP calculation. Since they are non-SSA contributing, then they are included in WEP calculations. The Totalisation credits have no bearing on the pension amounts in either country (or WEP), other than to allow a pension to qualify for benefits. The actual pension amounts you receive, do count.

Are you sure you're not going to miss all this fun?   

The relevant whatsit is at https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0300605386#b1

WEP will not apply where the number holder is:

* entitled to a U.S. totalization benefit based on coverage in both the U.S. and a totalization country coverage, or

* entitled to a regular U.S. benefit, as well as a foreign benefit which is based on a totalization agreement with the U.S., and not receiving any other pension based on non-covered work.

These policies apply to all benefits payable for 1/95 or later. Benefits for months before 1/95 may be subject to WEP.

Para 1 seems to embrace my case but who knows?  I'll know more when it's in payment and I can see how it's been calculated.

Miss the fun?  No.  With every box I manage to tick, my spirits lighten.

- FBARs - tick!
- Renunciation - tick!
- 1040s - ticking
- SS application - ticking
- 2014 filing (1040, 1040NR, 8833)
- CLN

Getting there.   

The relevant whatsit is at https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0300605386#b1Para 1 seems to embrace my case but who knows?

OK, I understand the problem. The introduction helps.

"P.L. 103-296 provides that the WEP will not apply in computing U.S. totalization benefits and/or in computing regular U.S. benefits where the NH receives a foreign totalization benefit based on U.S. work, and no other non-covered pension."

combined with

"entitled to a regular U.S. benefit, as well as a foreign benefit which is based on a totalization agreement with the U.S., and not receiving any other pension based on non-covered work."

In other words, if you do not qualify for pension benefits in the UK, and use the agreement to enable US credits to be used for the UK benefit, then WEP may not apply. Is this the case for you? The bit about not having additional pensions from non-covered work (any UK pension) also scuppers the "no WEP" consideration.

IMHO 

EDIT: Just to add:

"entitled to a U.S. totalization benefit based on coverage in both the U.S. and a totalization country coverage,"

I believe this indicates that the agreement was used to qualify pensions in both the US and UK. (Both the US and the UK totals, separately, were insufficient to qualify without using the agreement.)

As I read it, it says "WEP will not apply where the number holder is entitled to a U.S. totalization benefit based on coverage in both the U.S. and a totalization country coverage."  Which does apply to me, and the subsequent clause is or'ed, not and'ed.

But there's another qualification stated further down the page:

These policies apply to all benefits payable for 1/95 or later. Benefits for months before 1/95 may be subject to WEP.

The meaning of this isn't clear to me.  "Payable for" could mean "payable for months worked after 1/95" or it could mean "paid to the recipient after 1/95".  If the former, the policy doesn't apply to me at all.  If the latter, the policy does apply to me.  Who knows?  Fortunately it's not going to matter much to me either way, with such a small amount, but my ex could use the extra.

Whenever there is a discussion on WEP, one comment will always surface; an agreement that any explanation related to WEP is very poorly worded and the meaning is often undecipherable. Check out the long SS/WEP thread on BE (BritishExpats).

You'll have to wait and see what the outcome is for the calculation of your SS benefit. Perhaps when you ask for a new application, you could inquire about your situation and WEP.

If nun's looking in, does the WEP calculator include Totalisation considerations?

 

Whenever there is a discussion on WEP, one comment will always surface; an agreement that any explanation related to WEP is very poorly worded and the meaning is often undecipherable. Check out the long SS/WEP thread on BE (BritishExpats).

I guess, to be fair, it's because documents like the one I've been citing are for use by those calculating the benefits, not those hoping to receive the benefits.  It's probably very clear to the people it's addressed to.

You'll have to wait and see what the outcome is for the calculation of your SS benefit. Perhaps when you ask for a new application, you could inquire about your situation and WEP.

I think I'll wait until it's in payment.  No doubt there will be something to show how it's been calculated.  If WEP's been applied, I can query it then if need be.

If nun's looking in, does the WEP calculator include Totalisation considerations?

That would be handy.   

This explanation from GN 01701.301 clarifies the logic nicely:

For Totalization benefits payable for months prior to January 1995, special rules are used to determine whether a foreign pension is considered a pension based on noncovered employment. Since the WEP does not apply in computing Totalization benefits for months after December 1994, these special rules are relevant only if Totalization benefits are payable for months before January 1995.
[..]
When a worker is entitled to a U.S. Totalization benefit payable for months before January 1995 and a pension from a Totalization agreement country (i.e., a pension based on work covered by the social security system of that country), the foreign pension is considered to be based on U.S. covered work. As a result, entitlement to a pension (government sponsored or private) from an agreement country will not cause the WEP to apply in the computation of a U.S. Totalization benefit payable for months before January 1995.
[..]
If the NH is insured based on U.S. coverage alone, a pension from an agreement country is considered a pension based on noncovered work and may trigger the WEP for benefits payable for months prior to January 1995. For benefits payable after December 1994, a foreign pension may trigger the WEP only if the NH is insured based on U.S. coverage alone and the foreign pension is not based on the Totalization agreement with the United States. (See GN 01701.310 for a discussion of this provision.)

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0201701301

In my case (according to my understanding of the above), since I'm not insured based on US coverage alone, the 1995 date isn't relevant and the WEP does not apply.  I'll put this to the FBU tomorrow and see if they concur.

I assume you've tried the following, but if you haven't:

https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/anypia/anypia.html
The detailed calculator which provides for WEP calculations, if they are to be considered. Most who have used this calculator (including myself) have found it reasonably accurate, although SSA warns this is not the exact calculator which will be used for the official determination.

https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/anypia/download/anypia32.pdf
According to the downloadable instructions (on page 20), it states an indicator for totalisation benefits is included.

Give it a try, and you may find your answer.

I assume you've tried the following, but if you haven't:

https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/anypia/anypia.html
The detailed calculator which provides for WEP calculations, if they are to be considered. Most who have used this calculator (including myself) have found it reasonably accurate, although SSA warns this is not the exact calculator which will be used for the official determination.

https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/anypia/download/anypia32.pdf
According to the downloadable instructions (on page 20), it states an indicator for totalisation benefits is included.

Give it a try, and you may find your answer.

Thanks for the links, that's interesting.  Strange though - not been tested under W8, which is what my laptop's on.  It does seem extraordinary if the team that produced this useful programme cannot get a budget to cover OS upgrades and testing.

I'll give it a try once the claim has been processed and (presumably) I receive the figures showing how it has been calculated.  Assuming it does run ok under W8, it will be interesting to compare the results.