grammar skills in the UK

this is also a pet peeve of mine. i've never heard such worse grammar in my life.

*sigh* What's that saying about pots and kettles?

for dinner when people say, "getting an indian." grammatically, it makes no sense. we put "a" or "an" after a specific thing. "getting a pizza" makes sense. but to make it general, "getting an italian" makes it sound like you are going to eat an italian person.

This is an example of ellipsis, omitting words that are unnecessary to avoid repetition or to simplify things. In this case it's the word 'meal', as in 'Let's get an Italian meal'. 'Meal' is clearly understood, since as you point out no one would imagine that they mean to eat an Italian person.

Similarly, when you invite someone to get a coffee. Coffee is an uncountable noun so shouldn't be used with an article. But since what we're really saying is 'a cup of coffee' then the article is appropriate. We just omit 'cup of' because it's clearly understood and therefore unnecessary. 
More on ellipsis: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/ellipsis

on the flip side, they also use specific terms for general things. an example of this is saying you are going to hoover the floor rather than the verb vacuuming. or calling a doctor's office surgery.

Have you ever xeroxed anything? (probably not if you're in your 20s). Ever used a kleenex? This is the same as hoovering. Using brand names as generic terms is pretty common: http://mentalfloss.com/article/56667/41-brand-names-people-use-generic-terms

The use of 'surgery' to mean a place to go to ask advice is British usage, but it's not poor grammar, it's just a difference in vocabulary. There are plenty of those among all the different English-speaking countries, as I'm sure you've observed.

also, i think the british have a habit of shortening phrases which also makes things confusing. example, when someone is sick, saying "they're poorly."

Also merely a difference in vocabulary. They wouldn't say 'sick' because that suggests vomiting to a British person. Personally, I find 'poorly' a charming way to describe someone who's feeling a bit unwell. These little lexical differences are one of my favourite things about living in the UK.

@sonofasailor yes, diminutives/baby talk bother me too...preggers...just no! I loathe that word. Also, things like fro yo for frozen yogurt or frosh for freshman. Email/texting/forums, etc are definitely the decline of the English language. I find myself guilty as well.

But it bothers me that American English is seen as "simple" English when in America, I hear more grammatically correct English and more people use "big" words (But I guess too it depends where in America you are.)  I tend to get a lot of blank stares here in London when I do use big words.  But I had someone tell me last week they hated that American language was seeping into British culture. OK bruv.

But honestly, English in general is just declining on both sides of the pond. One friend of mine who teaches English to teens says now "math" is used as cool, like "Dude your shirt is so math." ??

Sorry, my computer went a bit mental, double posted.

Lalala75 you might want to do a bit of actual research on linguistics, language evolution, development of slang, etc, before decrying modern speech as a harbinger of linguistic doom. And possibly check the definitions of those big words that people give you odd looks for using. Just a suggestion 

@historyenne " *sigh* What's that saying about pots and kettles?"

simmer down lady, you dont have to be so up in arms. this is a board about people ranting about what bothers them in england as americans. maybe you should join a board about british people hating americans, since you seem to relate more to that.

and nice try on the unnecessary links...shortening words and phrases still sounds unprofessional and unpolished, which was the OP's original point. Even if Americans do this, it still makes them sound dumb, saying "y'all" for example.

@sonofasailor yes, diminutives/baby talk bother me too...preggers...just no! I loathe that word. Also, things like fro yo for frozen yogurt or frosh for freshman. Email/texting/forums, etc are definitely the decline of the English language. I find myself guilty as well.

But it bothers me that American English is seen as "simple" English when in America, I hear more grammatically correct English and more people use "big" words (But I guess too it depends where in America you are.)  I tend to get a lot of blank stares here in London when I do use big words.  But I had someone tell me last week they hated that American language was seeping into British culture. OK bruv.

But honestly, English in general is just declining on both sides of the pond. One friend of mine who teaches English to teens says now "math" is used as cool, like "Dude your shirt is so math." ??

Anyone who has ever studied the English language and its history will tell you that every single generation says this. What we consider "proper" or "correct" grammar or usage was once considered a decline in the English language. You only need to observe the fact hay old English is entirely unreadable to modern English speakers, Middle English is a stretch, and most modern English speakers think Early Modern English (Shakespeare) is incredibly proper. In reality Shakespeare was doing the same things with the English of his day that the Internet and other subsets of English are doing today. There are no real hard and fast rules. There is just and increase or a decrease in the prevalence of certain words and meanings. If you take a look at the OED definition of almost any word you can see how they have changed leaning over the centuries.  Language is not static. It's incredibly fluid and open to interpretation.


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@alisonr I dont think anyone is saying English hasn't changed. It's made up of various other languages so of course. But I'd argue that nowadays, when people use emoticons and stickies to chat and no words even, you can fairly say English is declining. And I can't believe that we are comparing Shakespeare to "LOL"

@alisonr I dont think anyone is saying English hasn't changed. It's made up of various other languages so of course. But I'd argue that nowadays, when people use emoticons and stickies to chat and no words even, you can fairly say English is declining. And I can't believe that we are comparing Shakespeare to "LOL"

Except that LOL is the modern equivalent of what Shakespeare was doing in a lot of cases. Many many words and terms we use today were completely made up by him. They were not "proper" English. You can't pretend Shakespeare is some exemplar of good English when most of his humour is toilet based. His plays were for the common man, not well educated people.

And you can't definitively say there is a decline. It's a relative term. Declining from what exactly? It's not like language has been spiralling upward or something. It's just changing. Not in any upward or downward direction. Just changing.

I wouldn't point this out if it weren't for the topic at hand, but your grammar is your first post is  far from good, as hostoryenne pointed out. At its heart, language is a means of effectively communicating. Despite the dismal state of the grammar in your first few sentences, I knew exactly what you meant, so the "correctness" of your mechanics and usage are irrelevant.  There will always be some formal standard for professional and academic settings, and that standard will adapt and change more slowly that the common vernacular. I'm young, but academic writing rules have changed since I was in high school, college, and even less school. For instance, "they" was not an accepted gender neutral singular pronoun when I was in high school or college, and now it has been officially recognised as good usage. I've only been out of undergrad since 2011 and already formal standard shave changed. They changed because everyone still understood when people used "they" as a singular and there was essentially no reason to exclude it from proper usage when it still allowed for effective communication.


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@alisonr I dont think anyone is saying English hasn't changed. It's made up of various other languages so of course. But I'd argue that nowadays, when people use emoticons and stickies to chat and no words even, you can fairly say English is declining. And I can't believe that we are comparing Shakespeare to "LOL"

Except that LOL is the modern equivalent of what Shakespeare was doing in a lot of cases. Many many words and terms we use today were completely made up by him. They were not "proper" English. You can't pretend Shakespeare is some exemplar of good English when most of his humour is toilet based. His plays were for the common man, not well educated people.

And you can't definitively say there is a decline. It's a relative term. Declining from what exactly? It's not like language has been spiralling upward or something. It's just changing. Not in any upward or downward direction. Just changing.

I wouldn't point this out if it weren't for the topic at hand, but your grammar is your first post is  far from good, as hostoryenne pointed out. At its heart, language is a means of effectively communicating. Despite the dismal state of the grammar in your first few sentences, I knew exactly what you meant, so the "correctness" of your mechanics and usage are irrelevant.  There will always be some formal standard for professional and academic settings, and that standard will adapt and change more slowly that the common vernacular. I'm young, but academic writing rules have changed since I was in high school, college, and even less school. For instance, "they" was not an accepted gender neutral singular pronoun when I was in high school or college, and now it has been officially recognised as good usage. I've only been out of undergrad since 2011 and already formal standard shave changed. They changed because everyone still understood when people used "they" as a singular and there was essentially no reason to exclude it from proper usage when it still allowed for effective communication.


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Just as a point of reference, I would like to enter in to the record this Ali G/Jacob Rees Mogg interview:

@alisonr good grief, i know my english wasnt great in my posts because i'm on a freaking message board not writing The Great Gatsby here

@alisonr although i'd like to point out that i'm a professional writer and once was a copyeditor for two magazines but thanks anyway for the tips

@alisonr good grief, i know my english wasnt great in my posts because i'm on a freaking message board not writing The Great Gatsby here

I realise that. Which is why I said that I wouldn't mention it if we were on another topic. I'm not in the habit of attacking people's grammar to invalidate their unrelated arguments. But since you're complaining about British grammar and simultaneously practicing bad grammar yourself, it's actually relevant to this conversation. As historyenne  suggested, I'd suggest you do some googling on linguistics and language development. Almost all grammar was considered bad at one point. You bemoaning the supposed decline of the English language is really just you becoming uncomfortable with new, perfectly valid uses. You're simply unfamiliar with them.

Also, I'd like to point out the "y'all" is perfectly valid linguistically. I'm southern and use is all the time. If you think it makes someone sound unintelligent to use that word then that's a prejudice you need to sort out yourself.  It's simply a regional usage.  Just because it's not ok to put on an academic paper doesn't make it bad or unintelligent.


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@alisonr although i'd like to point out that i'm a professional writer and once was a copyeditor for two magazines but thanks anyway for the tips

Being a writer does not speak to your knowledge of linguistics. Anyone can correct grammar. I was an editor or a law review. I know grammar just as well as anyone else. But I also studies linguistics in college, and I know that they are 2 separate entities. Knowledge of one does not equate to knowledge of the other. Your main point (English is declining) is concerned with linguistics rather than grammar.


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@alisonr i'm originally from Texas so I used to say "y'all" as well. but would i say it in a professional settings? No because I realize people would not take me seriously, particularly if I moved out of the southern region. The same as if someone would probably not speak street slang in the office. And again, back to the OP's original point, which wasn't about how people talk on the internet but was how a government agency sounded really unprofessional.

My mom says Y'all all the time...  she hates that her boss (from up north) says yous and thinks it's so unprofessional.  That is the pot calling the kettle black!!