New Questions.....Surinder Singh possibility????

HI all, just wanted to give an update! We are here in Ireland since July. Hubby started working in August, the girls are in school and we are living at the seaside. We are looking at maybe coming back in August to England. I've got my Stamp 4 and am just waiting for my RC which is due next month, but I don't expect it until April or so as they are a bit backlogged right now in Dublin. I am in the process of putting together and keeping together all my documents for a Family Permit Application in a few months.

It's tough with Brexit!  No one really knows what will happen in the next few months...

HI all, just wanted to give an update! We are here in Ireland since July. Hubby started working in August, the girls are in school and we are living at the seaside. We are looking at maybe coming back in August to England. I've got my Stamp 4 and am just waiting for my RC which is due next month, but I don't expect it until April or so as they are a bit backlogged right now in Dublin. I am in the process of putting together and keeping together all my documents for a Family Permit Application in a few months.

Are you keeping up with the changes to Singh? They have started to toughen up even more recently.
There is a thread about it here.  http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=88876.msg1155009#msg1155009

Yep, new rules for Singh that are affecting many 3rd country nationals that have already entered the UK a year ago with a FP on Singh and they are being refused a UK RC. The reason for that being that the new rules for Singh are for all RC applications decided by the UK from 24 November 2016. The UK seem to have been delaying giving out RCs until the new rules started and Ireland have been helping the UK by doing the same in their country (which then delays those trying to use Singh to avoid UK immigration laws).

As said, there is also Brexit and there has been very little said about the status of  3rd country nationals (non-EU citizens) in the UK who are using EU rules or EU court rulings, to reside. The devil will be in the detail of the UK's Great Repeal Bill and whether the UK will incorporate EU court rulings into UK law as nothing has been said about these 3rd country nationals yet. Singh and Metock are just two of the many EU court rulings that 3rd country nationals use.

Have a read of the two UK government links that larrabee gave, about 3rd country nationals who have used Singh to avoid UK immigration rules.

Am I right in saying that the Singh route is affected - full stop.  Not "just people who used it to circumvent immigration rules".  Cuz honestly, I don't know how they would prove intent.  I imagine there are many couples/families who legitimately want to use Singh but are now unable to.

Am I right in saying that the Singh route is affected - full stop.  Not "just people who used it to circumvent immigration rules".  Cuz honestly, I don't know how they would prove intent.  I imagine there are many couples/families who legitimately want to use Singh but are now unable to.

No, the genuine people will be OK still until Brexit (and then who knows what there status will be in the UK). i.e.  someone who worked in an EEA country for 15+ years with their non-EEA spouse, or has moved to a few EU countries with their non-EEA spouse over the decades, is a geniuine Singh case.

The highest court in the EU made it quite clear years ago that 3rd country nationals are not allowed use Singh to avoid the immigration rules of that EEA country. This is nothing new as there are still posts from those in the UK who entered under Singh years ago (spouse and family members) and have been refused permission to stay. They use the courts to try to get permission to remain but they don't seem to win. They have been overstayers for all that time and the only winner is their legal representative.
 
There seems to be a set pattern for those trying to use Singh to enter the UK to avoid UK immgiration rules that even I know now   and the EEA Reg changes have just made it clearer on who is to be refused an RC for this "fraud" as the government call it.

The usual pattern is go to any EEA country even though they have never lived in any EEA country before, intergrate to try to show "centre of life" then enter the UK asap. A genuine Singh case would be in that country for many many years and maybe be in several EEA countries with their Brit spouse over the decades.

It isn't hard to put in rules to stop a set pattern. i.e. The new EEA Regs in that link show what that criteria will be to find those 3rd country nationals using "fraud". One of them is if that was the first EEA country that non-EEA citizen has ever lived in. They also make it clear now that Singh cannot be used by 3rd country nationals who are tyring to use Singh to avoid UK immigration rules.  For those doing this, it will be like a lucky bag. Have a read of the two govenment links.


We are seeing refusals of RCs under the new rules too. The first I saw was someone who could have entered under UK rules as they worked in the US and would have met the financial requirement to sponsor their husband without waiting 6 months, but they choose what they thought was the cheaper option of the well worn route of Ireland and then Singh to the UK. Entered on a FP and found a job in the UK but now months later, he has correctly been refused a UK RC and has no right to reside in the UK.

However, the Brit wife entered the UK pregnant, didn't go back to work and can't now meet the requirements to sponsor him to the UK anymore until she has worked for 6 months. He will have to return back to the US for a visa application anyway.

It's not just the Singh route, the UK have shut down a lot of abuse from 3rd country nationals using EU laws or EU court rulings to reside, as have most of the popular EEA countries.  All this was in place before the vote to Leave, in June.

Just playing devil's advocate a bit (painfully slow at work!).

We see lots of families on this board move US to UK or vice versa.  They go into life in their new country gung-ho, ready to establish life in their new home.  A year or so down the line, they realise that life is not a film.  They are far away from family, they can't get a job in the new country, and their relationship is starting to strain.  They abandon their spouse visa or green card and relocate back to the trailing spouse's country.  This happens quite frequently.

Not to stereotype (but here I go!), but a lot of Americans think Ireland shoots rainbows out of it's ass.  That there is no better place on earth and are dying to move there.  But you and I both know the economy in Ireland is pretty dire (even though it has improved), as well as the adjustments to a new country.  Are there not legitimate cases of couples/families with a UKC spouse and a USC spouse having moved to Ireland to live the dream... find it's not all it's cracked up to be and want to move to either the US or UK?  Couldn't that happen just as easily or as frequently as someone not adapting to the US or UK?  And be a legitimate Singh case?

I can see where a short length of time would look suspicious.  I can also see that it would look suspicious if neither spouse had a job that was luring them to a third country.  But still seems it would be very hard to prove.

Are appeals being allowed?

Sorry to Cloverbea for taking the thread off track...  I'm bored!!   

Are there not legitimate cases of couples/families with a UKC spouse and a USC spouse having moved to Ireland to live the dream... find it's not all it's cracked up to be and want to move to either the US or UK?  Couldn't that happen just as easily or as frequently as someone not adapting to the US or UK? 

And be a legitimate Singh case?

Read the Singh ruling. Oh and it wasn't a love affair that some people think it was, quite the opposite It isn't for those 3rd country nationals who went to an EEA country for a short while and then changed their mind nor was it to be used to avoid immigration rules of an EEA country. If they could use Singh if they said they changed their mind, then everyone would lie and say that

AFAIK, these in your example would need to use US or UK immigration laws to bring a spouse to those countries. Or the Brit could take their non-EEA family to any of the other 25 EEA countries and work there under free movement if they didn't like Ireland.

Not that it matters anymore now for any EEA route as there is a Brexit looming. They need at least 5 years of EU rules in the UK and it is doubtful there will be that long. Read the link to the document that the UK government brought out about Singh as some of that is quite an interesting read.

Are appeals being allowed?

Not for extended family members as they have no automatic right to live with their EEA citizen sponsor in another EEA country. That no right of appeal confirmed by the courts in the Sala case (I read a fourm where the legal bods were complaining about this as it is a loss of income for them). Although extended family members are not allowed to use Singh to the UK anymore as the UK has stopped that and this rule applies to all RCs decided by UKVI from 24 November 2016.

Direct family members can appeal, but my limited understanding is that they are then overstayers if they remain in the UK. Unlike UK immigration laws where immigrants get protection of 3c of the Immigration Rules (not overstayers if they have appealed in time) those using EU routes don't have this protection.

Perhaps we should be on the Singh Reg changes thread?

Read the link to the document that the UK government brought out about Singh as some of that is quite an interesting read.

Is it really?  I'm not sure I'm THAT bored.

Is it really?  I'm not sure I'm THAT bored.

  I didn't read it all, I flicked throught the alterations until I got to a bit in plain English: the changes for Singh and what they think. It was only about two of three lines.

So ticked off about this. I just had an offer in Belgium that I turned away as to avoid risking being stuck in Belgium where we don't know anyone.

KF and everyone actually,

Thanks for your candor While Ireland has its fine points, it is not somewhere we would like to settle permanently. The economy is very depressed here still, jobs are super hard to come by and honestly with all the benefits offered to its citizens, most people don't work or work very little. My hubby with years of experience and degrees (from the states) could only manage a 25 hour a week contract(considered fulltime here) at a retail store. We are managing, but our opportunities are much better in the UK. I have just been approved for my Residence Card and will pick it up in a couple of weeks, then we'll apply for our family permit and hopefully will be back in England by the first of August. We will have been here for a year come June, our two girls are in primary school, my three year old is in nursery school 3 days a week. We moved to Ireland because it seemed like a good compromise for our families between the states and the UK. With all the changes going on, we still tick all the boxes, but people are being refused at astonishing rates. We will take our chances, we literallly picked up our life in the states and transplanted it here to Ireland. We pay bills, taxes, involve ourselves in the childrens school activities and community. While I have enjoyed my time in Ireland, I will be glad to see it behind me

I have just been approved for my Residence Card and will pick it up in a couple of weeks, then we'll apply for our family permit and hopefully will be back in England by the first of August.

I hope you have written that the wrong way around? It's the multi entry FP to enter the UK and then apply for a UK RC when your sponsor is working. He must be a qualified person when you apply for your RCs and must remain a qualified person at all times for your RC to remain valid (for his family members to have a legal right to reside in the UK) as the RC end date means nothing. It's not like a visa.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/european-economic-area-nationals-qualified-persons

 

With all the changes going on, we still tick all the boxes, but people are being refused at astonishing rates.

Yes, many have been refused a UK RC on Singh. That's because the European Court of Justice has confirmed that the Singh ruling they made, cannot be used by 3rd country nationals (non-EU citizens) to avoid the immigration rules of a member state (EEA country).  The UK have chaged their EEA Regs to make it clear and added in other court cases the UK has won. i.e. no right of appeal for Extended Family Members who are refused a UK RC. Even those trying for PR to apply for British citizenship (5 years of what they thought was lawful status in the UK using Singh) are being refused under these new Regs.


If you are granted a UK RC, you might find it helpful to sign up the UK government's texts on what your status will be in the UK on Brexit by March 2019.

Yea.....
So...I've been approved for my IRISH RC hence the reason we're still in Ireland and once received we'll be applying for our UK Family Permit and will be leaving Ireland around the first of August. I'm up with the laws, up with the changes, thanks.

KF and everyone actually,

Thanks for your candor While Ireland has its fine points, it is not somewhere we would like to settle permanently. The economy is very depressed here still, jobs are super hard to come by and honestly with all the benefits offered to its citizens, most people don't work or work very little. My hubby with years of experience and degrees (from the states) could only manage a 25 hour a week contract(considered fulltime here) at a retail store. We are managing, but our opportunities are much better in the UK. I have just been approved for my Residence Card and will pick it up in a couple of weeks, then we'll apply for our family permit and hopefully will be back in England by the first of August. We will have been here for a year come June, our two girls are in primary school, my three year old is in nursery school 3 days a week. We moved to Ireland because it seemed like a good compromise for our families between the states and the UK. With all the changes going on, we still tick all the boxes, but people are being refused at astonishing rates. We will take our chances, we literallly picked up our life in the states and transplanted it here to Ireland. We pay bills, taxes, involve ourselves in the childrens school activities and community. While I have enjoyed my time in Ireland, I will be glad to see it behind me

Not going to lie, I always wonder why many Americans seem infatuated with Ireland.  I personally don't think it's a very nice place.  But I've spent 99% of my time in Dublin and a few days in the middle of the country.  I haven't been to the scenic areas.

Glad things are falling into place.  Keep us posted!