Bad Experience Coming back after Christmas without UK Resident Card

Not a user-friendly name. Nobdody's getting a balloon or lollipop at the Interventions & Sanctions Directorate.

LOL. Very true. But they certainly have shown that their 1984ish name doesn't make them infallible.

LOL. Very true. But they certainly have shown that their 1984ish name doesn't make them infallible.

The reverse is infuriating too....a user-friendly web page with "Click here for more help"..."Need more info-click here", and you keep going and end up back at the beginning...

Why not just have a page you get to that says...."Sorry, help's off".

I find it a bit humorous Sirius that you've kinda turned my thread into a UK vs EU discussion. :-)

Really? Even though your thread is about EU treaty rights of free movement for a family member to be in the UK?

Part of me wonders if this is anything to do with what the EU has offered the UK to make them vote to stay in the EU/EEA? Either the, no bringing in non-EEA citizens with them, or the deporting of those in the UK via EU rules, who commit a crime or who has already commited a crime in any country? Another part of me thinks this is too soon to be starting on that.

Perhaps this is where it started going a bit off?

It is my understanding that any changes are contingent on the referendum vote....

But it would be a bit hypocritical of me to start talking about thread jacking.....lord knows I am chief among sinners...

And an end to the ridiculous situation where EU nationals can avoid British immigration rules when bringing their families from outside the EU.

I assume this line a shadowy reference to Surinder Singh?

This is not ridiculous. I realize that Brits are reluctant Europeans, but as long as they remain as part of the EU, this is a right that European citizens have.  Anyway, the line above is still quite vague, and the EU Parliament, will I assume, have to debate and pass a law as to what this actually entails in practice (assuming the UK votes to stay in the EU). But I can't see the EU letting the UK do this and I can't in the larder scheme of things, believe that the UK would be willing to give up their own freedom of movement within the EEA.

It's not like only Britain is in that situation, every EU country is in the same situation of having different rules for its own citizens versus EEA citizens for immigration. It's not Europeans' fault that the UK has horrible immigration laws that force people to find different solutions in order to stay with their families.

Just a little update...

After getting the simple email where they acknowledged my email, I waited for over a month to see if the semi secretive Interventions and Sanctions Directorate would reply with a more coherent replay. They did not. So, I wrote them again...

Dear Interventions and Sanctions Directorate,

On 22 Feb, you replied to my email in which I asked how you came to the conclusion that I was in the United Kingdom illegally. In your reply you simply said that the contents of my email had been noted and nothing more. I have now waited for over a month for a more coherent response but none has been received.

I thereby invoke the Freedom of Information act to receive the information you claim to possessed that showed I was in the United Kingdom illegally. Please see the originally correspondence in the thread of this email (started by a letter you sent to my postal address) and then the follow up replies.

Thank you for your time.


They then replied 3 and a half hours later with:

Mr - Castle,
 
Thank you for your email dated 24/03/16,the contents have been noted. In order to make a subject access request please click on the following link which will provide you with the necessary guidance and applicable form.
 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/requests-for-personal-data-uk-visas-and-immigration
 
Kind regards
 
Interventions & Sanctions Directorate
17th Floor
Lunar House
40 Wellesley Road
Croydon, CR9 2BY
                               -   Immigration Enforcement

This is something called a Subject Access Request (SAR). Has anyone heard of it? If I fill it out and pay the small fee will it actually show the information that caused the ISD come to the conclusion (wrongly) that I was in the UK illegally? If not, is the document a waste of my time. Could it somehow negatively affect the decision to refuse my residence card? Perhaps I should wait until I receive my residence card and then request a SAR?

Just a little update...

After getting the simple email where they acknowledged my email, I waited for over a month to see if the semi secretive Interventions and Sanctions Directorate would reply with a more coherent replay. They did not. So, I wrote them again...

Dear Interventions and Sanctions Directorate,

On 22 Feb, you replied to my email in which I asked how you came to the conclusion that I was in the United Kingdom illegally. In your reply you simply said that the contents of my email had been noted and nothing more. I have now waited for over a month for a more coherent response but none has been received.

I thereby invoke the Freedom of Information act to receive the information you claim to possessed that showed I was in the United Kingdom illegally. Please see the originally correspondence in the thread of this email (started by a letter you sent to my postal address) and then the follow up replies.

Thank you for your time.


They then replied 3 and a half hours later with:

Mr - Castle,
 
Thank you for your email dated 24/03/16,the contents have been noted. In order to make a subject access request please click on the following link which will provide you with the necessary guidance and applicable form.
 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/requests-for-personal-data-uk-visas-and-immigration
 
Kind regards
 
Interventions & Sanctions Directorate
17th Floor
Lunar House
40 Wellesley Road
Croydon, CR9 2BY
                               -   Immigration Enforcement

This is something called a Subject Access Request (SAR). Has anyone heard of it? If I fill it out and pay the small fee will it actually show the information that caused the ISD come to the conclusion (wrongly) that I was in the UK illegally? If not, is the document a waste of my time. Could it somehow negatively affect the decision to refuse my residence card? Perhaps I should wait until I receive my residence card and then request a SAR?

The SAR will tell you the info they hold about you - but it might not be nearly as complete as you might hope. Generally they hold info on any applications you have made and also the first landing card from when you became resident... They are pretty notorious for having some gaps. It is entirely separate from your application and will have no impact.

This is something called a Subject Access Request (SAR). Has anyone heard of it? If I fill it out and pay the small fee will it actually show the information that caused the ISD come to the conclusion (wrongly) that I was in the UK illegally?

Under present EU rules, as long as your EEA citizen remains a qualified person at all times then your RC remains valid. Just living in the UK does not make her a qualified person. Your EEA citizen failing to remain a qualified person means they lose the right to reside in the UK, which then affects your rights to reside in the UK too.

The SAR will show some (maybe not all) that the UK holds on you.

Thanks Sirius, but that is not the case. She is employed.

Thanks Sirius, but that is not the case. She is employed.

Full time and at all times? The UK brought in a Minimum Earnings Threshold to be worker qualiied person. She must be a qualified person at all times, that doesn't mean just a just a worker, but she must be one of the qualified persons under UK rules.

It's not like only Britain is in that situation, every EU country is in the same situation of having different rules for its own citizens versus EEA citizens for immigration.

Only since 2008 with the Metock court ruling, which then allowed non-EU citizens to move to the EEA as family members under free movement rules. A ruling that the leaders of all the EEA countries seem to be intending to remove by tightening up the wording of free movement.

Though of course it is related, her working status is a bit off the topic from my latest update and question.

Are you referring to this? (From the Citizens Advice Bureau regarding EEA citizens)

If you're working in the UK you don't have to satisfy the conditions of the HRT. However you'll need to show that the job you're doing is 'genuine and effective' and not 'marginal or ancillary'. There is no clear definition of what this means, but if it's a real and necessary job that an employer would pay you to do, it should be classed as work. It can be full or part time. However, from 1 March 2014, you will be asked to show that for the three months before your benefit claim your gross earnings from your work have been at least at the level at which employees start paying national insurance contributions (£153 from 7 April 2014). If your earnings have reached this level you will automatically be regarded as a worker. If your earnings are below this 'minimum earnings threshold' you may still be considered a worker but you will be assessed against a wider range of criteria, for example, how much you earn, how many hours you work and whether your work is regular or intermittent.

Any other income threshold is not related to fellow EEA/EU citizens. Unless you have some other sources of course.

Though of course it is related, her working status is a bit off the topic from my latest update and question.

Are you referring to this? (From the Citizens Advice Bureau regarding EEA citizens)

If you're working in the UK you don't have to satisfy the conditions of the HRT. However you'll need to show that the job you're doing is 'genuine and effective' and not 'marginal or ancillary'. There is no clear definition of what this means, but if it's a real and necessary job that an employer would pay you to do, it should be classed as work. It can be full or part time. However, from 1 March 2014, you will be asked to show that for the three months before your benefit claim your gross earnings from your work have been at least at the level at which employees start paying national insurance contributions (£153 from 7 April 2014). If your earnings have reached this level you will automatically be regarded as a worker. If your earnings are below this 'minimum earnings threshold' you may still be considered a worker but you will be assessed against a wider range of criteria, for example, how much you earn, how many hours you work and whether your work is regular or intermittent.

Any other income threshold is not related to fellow EEA/EU citizens. Unless you have some other sources of course.

The UK brought in new rules for workers (PAYE) and self employed workers for benefits (at first). Both have to meet the MET. The self employed person now has to register with HMRC too (I can't rememebr all they have to do to be classed as SE).

Now those trying for PR in the UK are reporting they are have been refused PR as they, the EEA citizen (or their EEA citizen) was not earning the MET and therefore they were not a worker qualified person during that time.

The rules for Self Sufficient changed too as they use to claim their non-EU working was how they were self sufficient. Now all the family of a self sufficient need to have comprehensive sickness insurance, and they must show the savings they had to prove they are as a self sufficient. If they can't show those savings then their non-EU family member had no right to work as they, the EEA citizen, was not exercising treaty rights (and therefore they can't use those wages of the non-EEA  to show they were self sufficient as they were not meant to be working). If they claimed UK benefits, even only for their children, then they were not a self sufficient as they needed the UK to keep them.

Using this MET seems to mean that those who are Student qualiifed persons can't avoid buying comrehensive sickeness policies for all their family members by doing just a few hours work a week and claiming they are a worker. More to the point, without that CSI for all their family, they are not exercising treaty rights of free movement in the UK.

It would be nice if you could provide some concrete sources, as this is interesting.

 However, my wife is certainly a qualified person as she does a highly skilled job that only a few people are qualified for.

 Anyway... why the heck would a Norwegian come to the UK to earn less that £149 a week? One could earn WAY more in Norway doing the most mindless job.