Retiring to the UK - California State Pension

Hi Sirius.

Yes, we're aware of the Brexit sword hanging over our heads.  And that Scotland could end up going indie as well. This is a long shot. Plan "B" is the Tier 4 visa.

We've been in contact with the legal advice service of the EU, and they have said that as long as she is in higher education full time and living at home, she can be defined (with no absolute guarantee that UK will accept it) as dependent. She lives at home. I'm paying for everything, other than the actual tuition fees. Her tax returns for the last few years show her earning under $3,000 a year, plus the tax on her student aid above her fees (which wasn't much).  I have been keeping bank statements, car insurance statements, etc., assiduously.

When we hit the UK, the same will be in effect. She won't be getting any funding from the USA while there. It will come out of our combined pockets. (There is a chunk of saved up cash in a safe deposit box, and I can hit my 403B if I need to.)

I am hoping to come in as a worker, and do actually hope to find some work for a while.  The EU service said that if I come in as a worker OR as a retiree, she would be free to seek work (outside of schooling). Do you have information otherwise?

Keep a paper trail of you paying her fees. Any money you give her, pay into her account from yours. Anything to show 100% proof that she is an adult who is dependant on you.

If she was younger then you wouldn't need this proof as it accepted that a child is dependant on their parent. As she over age 21, you must prove that she is an adult who is dependant on you. 

The EU service said that if I come in as a worker OR as a retiree, she would be free to seek work (outside of schooling). Do you have information otherwise?

I don't know why they told you that. You can't come in as a worker if your aren't one.

There isn't a retiree qualified person, it would be a Self Sufficient qualified person. A Self Sufficient qualified person needs proof they have the funds/income to be self sufficient. They and all their family members must have a a CSI (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance) or an S1 from their own EEA country as that is used as a CSI because their own country pays all their NHS bills. No taking UK benefits as they are self sufficient.

If you were a self sufficient qualified person, UK laws do not treat an Irish citizen as "foreign". I am guessing that this would mean that you residing in the UK could use the NHS for free, but your daughter would need a CSI as you are using EU rules for her? TBH, I've only ever seen Irish worker qualified persons using the EU route in the UK for their non-EU family. A worker qualified person and all their family members, can use the NHS for free.


An EEA citizen is allowed a three months "visit" in another EEA country, using our own countries EHIC to pay for any healthcare we need in there or we use  our own private insurance policy. After that 3 months, we have to leave if we aren't a qualified person by then.


Being a "qualified person" at all times is our "right to reside" in that country with our family members. Cease being a "qualified person", then we and our family members lose the  "right to reside" in that country.

Unlike the UK "visa" that gives "limited leave to remain" with an end date, EU treaty rights is about EEA citizens and our families having a "right to reside" in that country, which ends as soon as we (the EEA citizen) cease to be a "qualified person".


As for her working, yes if you remain a qualified person at all times, then she is allowed to work. The UK has just made working when not allowed, a crime. It is important that you remain a qualified person at all times so that she continues to have  a "right to reside" in the UK.

However, you are claiming that she is an adult who is dependant on you and her 'right to reside' in the UK as your family member, depends on that.
I'm not sure how much leeway the UK will give on that if she is working to keep herself. You need a solid paper trail at all times, to show that you always keep her.

Hi Sirius.

She has no income to speak of and lives at home. Hopefully my paper-trail will be enough for the UK government.   

On the "qualified person" issue - as a retiree I will have a guaranteed pension,  savings/investment income and in just under two years I could also access my U.S. Social Security. I will have a rather sturdy health insurance cover from my employer that I don't have to pay for.  SO, it looks like all those boxes are ticked off. It's just a matter of terminology "retiree" v "self-sufficient". I will remember to use the correct one when dealing with the immigration people.   I'm rather trained to think of those two terms as interchangeable, as here if you are not going to be able to support yourself, you don't get to retire - unless you have family who will take you in!

I do intend to try to find work for a couple of years so that I don't have to dip into savings; however, if I don't find employment, I assume that the amount of income I'll have would keep me a "qualified person" as it exceeds what a UK citizen is required to have to sponsor a family member for settlement, if that was the comparison they might choose to use.   

I was given to understand by the EU Legal people that in order to eventually apply for long-term leave to remain we both have to show we've had private insurance for the full 5 years leading up to that point ~even if we were otherwise allowed to use the NHS~.  But they also said that, unless our permit states we had no access to NHS or other services, if we had to use the NHS for something it would not be disqualifying for the long-term leave to remain later on.  We just have to have the private insurance cover in place, no matter what the permits say. 

It's a given that once they trigger Brexit (and after the two years the exit will take) things will change. I'd rather have had the insurance cover and then, if allowed to stay, find out we didn't need to have it than to get that far along and be disqualified because we DID need it but had dropped it. 

We started planning this a year and a half ago, when Brexit wasn't even in the vocabulary.  Amazing how the landscape can change overnight, isn't it? So, yes, we need to find health insurance for my daughter.  Any ideas of a good company and what we could expect to pay? Also, I am having some difficulty finding out what the UK govmt. considers "Comprehensive Cover".  Have you seen anything that explains what they want to see covered?

Nan -- I never did find any clear explanation of what would be acceptable for CSI.  Nor did the immigration barrister I consulted have any ideas.  Eventually went with Saga policy (as a retiree) which seemed to pass muster.  We were referred to AXA https://www.axappphealthcare.co.uk/private-medical-insurance/campaign-b/

Nan -- I never did find any clear explanation of what would be acceptable for CSI.  Nor did the immigration barrister I consulted have any ideas.

There is this explanation of what is required, written before 23 June 2016.
http://www.healthinsurancesolutions.co.uk/comprehensive-sickness-insurance/

Although that still might be enough if the consulation the government ran about endiing free A&E/ambulances for all in England, comes in.

It's just a matter of terminology "retiree" v "self-sufficient". I will remember to use the correct one when dealing with the immigration people.   I'm rather trained to think of those two terms as interchangeable, as here if you are not going to be able to support yourself, you don't get to retire - unless you have family who will take you in!

In the UK, those who retire when they don't have enough money, can have some money from the welfare state: although those benefits are ending soon. Under EU law, a self sufficient must not be a burden to another EEA country.

Other people who need to be self sufficient can be-
An EEA citizen who is married to a citizen of that country but stays at home. Their spouse is allowed to work in their own country and those wages provide the money for the EEA national to be self sufficient.


Those EEA citizens who lose their job often buy CSIs for themselves and all their family, so that they can continue to be a qualified person, this time as a self sufficient. This will mean that they still have a right to reside in that country and their non-EU spouse can to continue to work. It also means that the EEA citizens '5 years to PR' clock isn't reset to zero.

Interesting. I have gotten quotes from a number of insurers in Scotland and the premiums per month for my daughter are around 40 to 60pounds and have some really impressive coverage. We're going to look at some of the student plans as well. 

My own insurance options - I actually have two possible: 1) no monthly cost, but if I use it  I pay the first $3,000 of fees (here that's like one MRI and some blood work), and then 20% of anything onward, with my out-of-pocket expense limited to about $6K a year.  2) The other would cost me about $2,000 a year even if I never used it, and then I'd have to pay 20% of ongoing expenses if I did. (There's supposed to be a new option going online in a month (Blue Cross) so I guess I'll have to wait to see what that is.) Currently, I am thinking I'll go with the free plan and look for a "topper-upper" plan in the UK to circumvent the govmt. from being unhappy about that $3K deductible. But if I'm working I think that's not necessary - for me the insurance is only needed if I'm "self-sufficient" (any time I'm not in work). Of course, I may not find work.... soooo many things up in the air right now!  It'll all sort out. Thanks for your help, all!

Next question, and we're way off topic now:  can anyone recommend a good moving company West Coast USA to the UK? We are paring down to the minimum - probably one sea crate (Lift Van?), possibility of two.  We won't have enough to fill even half of a 20 ft cargo container. There's no sense shipping furniture since it appears most apartments where we are heading are furnished, and ours is second-hand shop stuff anyway. And there's an Ikea handy there if we need a few things (aka, if the mattresses in the flat we rent are a horror, etc. ) But we do have things that we are willing to pay to keep (unique or of sentimental value). I've budgeted around $6k for moving costs and am praying I'm close. I'm thinking I may be a bit low on that estimate.... We're going to store everything we can't fit into our suitcases, to see how the wind is blowing there before we ship the crate(s) over (or not, or to some other place - we're not staying here, in any event). Storage is remarkably cheap.

Thanks!

It's a given that once they trigger Brexit (and after the two years the exit will take) things will change. I'd rather have had the insurance cover and then, if allowed to stay, find out we didn't need to have it than to get that far along and be disqualified because we DID need it but had dropped it.

Hi Nan

It's starting to read like you might need that CSI for what you are hoping to do.

With Brexit looming, many are moving to try to safeguard their being allowed to remain in the UK, by obtaining British citizenship.

An Irish citizen has posted that he and his non-Irish wife, decided to safeguard their stay in the UK because years ago he had used EU laws instead, of UK laws, to bring his wife to the UK.  His wife has been refused PR as she has no 'right to reside' in the UK because he, the Irish citizen, didn't work and didn't have a CSI.

It's the internet, it may or may not be true and it's the only one I have read, but that's not to say there aren't others.

We are seeing more and more refusals posted now since the Leave vote. For some strange reason known only to themselves, not everyone is like you and checks the laws that will allow them to reside in another country.

  But they also said that, unless our permit states we had no access to NHS or other services, if we had to use the NHS for something it would not be disqualifying for the long-term leave to remain later on.  We just have to have the private insurance cover in place, no matter what the permits say. 

Nobody gets a permit saying no access to the NHS. The NHS is the UK's health system and everyone can use it, but some have to pay.

Under EU law, those EEA citizens not in work in another country, cannot be an "undue burden" to that country. They won't pay for our use of their health service on the  same terms as their own citizens and there is no access to their welfare state. The family members of an EEA citizen can only have what their EEA citizen can have. When we are a EEA citizen worker in their country, we can be a burden to them.

In many EEA countries, if you live there but don't work there, they bill you to use their health service. But the UK's NHS was set up so that anyone who was legally resident in the UK could use the NHS for free.

In 2010, the UK insisted that EEA self sufficient and their families have a CSI to be a "qualified person" in the UK and the same for EEA students. Then they added the families of EEA students must have a CSI too. They could still use the NHS for free though, because of the law on who had free use of the NHS, but they needed a CSI. The UK started to change that law, but it takes years to change laws.

In May 2014, the Immigration Act 2014 became law. Part of that law changed who could use the NHS for free, from free to those who were legally resident in the UK, to free for those who are settled in the UK. Settled = Those who are residing in the UK and are a British citizen, Irish citizen, hold ILR (minimum of 5 years of UK immigration laws) and PR (EU law version of ILR). Those NHS changes through that law, began in April 2015.

I've seen plenty of refusals of PR since 2010 because EEA citizens didn't have a CSI when not in work, but to date I have not seen a refusal of PR when they were not in work, held a CSI but used the NHS without paying.

Hi Sirius.

By any chance are the NHS use rules different in Scotland than in England? 

So, as an Irish citizen I am "settled" and can use the NHS as would a citizen? Does that apply simply because I have that Irish passport, or do I have to show any particular stamp in it? Does that impact getting citizenship later on (not having CSI, but relying on the settled status)? If we come in as EU, then ... well, in five years EU won't be there, so who knows? We'll sort that out later!

On a tangent, it's unfortunate I do not live in Canada, as both of my maternal grandparents were born in Ireland before 1900 and, thus, I could have applied for British naturalization based on ancestry - if we'd been Canadian - and would have done so long ago, and we'd not be having this discussion at all.

So, we're going the EU route to bring my daughter in, and I need CSI if I'm not working, and there's no way to know if I'll be working or not. I've got some nice qualifications, but I'm also older and, short of being the granny working behind the counter at Greggs, I'm not sure how good the chances are for an older woman to find work there. (The gray hair can put people off.    )    Since I do have health insurance options from my employer, that CSI requirement may or may not be fulfilled by it. I have found nothing that says precisely what Her Majesty's best consider to be adequate CSI. So I wrote and asked them, and hopefully they'll give me some sort of useful advice that I will post here. 

It's a given that my daughter will need CSI, even though she'd be covered at the Uni, and we're good with that. Compared the the premiums she was paying here several years ago when she'd been working for a bit and then the work ended ($700 per month premium costs), the quotes we are getting from UK insurance companies seem quite the bargain.  She was over on a study abroad program last year and had to use her school's private insurance and it worked wonderfully - she called the concierge service for the insurance company, they booked her an appointment with a doctor the next day, and she was in and out of that office without more than a few moments' waiting, and she never received a bill for the charges.  When she tried to use NHS they told her she had to get up early the next day and phone to see if there were any open appointments that day, and if not, to try the next day since it wasn't an emergency. So having the private insurance really came in handy for her - the doctor even made personal phone calls to the pharmacy to make arrangements for the medication she needed. She said everyone, even the people at the pharmacy, were really very nice to her, and helpful. 

By any chance are the NHS use rules different in Scotland than in England? 

Things like arranging or removing reciprocal agreements with other countries, EU laws and the NHS, changing the law for the NHS so that it is now longer free to anyone who resides in the UK, etc, is the same for all four NHS. That's all done as the UK.

After that, each country can decide which groups of people they will allow to use their NHS for free. i.e. failed asylum seekers may get free NHS treatment in one of the four UK countries, but not in another. Each country can also decide which diseases they will treat for free to protect their own citizens, if that person is not normally allowed to have free use of the NHS.

So, as an Irish citizen I am "settled" and can use the NHS as would a citizen? Does that apply simply because I have that Irish passport, or do I have to show any particular stamp in it?

I am guessing that means that only have to prove that you live in the UK now, just as a returning Brit would have to do to be able to use the NHS for free. Others on here who got Irish citizenship to move to the UK, will know

Does that impact getting citizenship later on (not having CSI, but relying on the settled status)?

I'm not sure how an Irish citizen living in the UK, becomes British. Others on here, who have used that route, will know. or ksands might know. You don't need a CSI as an Irish citizen, unless it now seems from that post I read, you are using EU laws for your non-Irish daughter.

If we come in as EU, then ... well, in five years EU won't be there, so who knows? We'll sort that out later!

The end of EU laws won't affect you as you are an Irish citizen,(unless the EU decides to tell Irish citizens they are not allowed to do that anymore) but for your daughter, you will have to see what is offered to those in the UK under EU laws, under Brexit.

On a tangent, it's unfortunate I do not live in Canada, as both of my maternal grandparents were born in Ireland before 1900 and, thus, I could have applied for British naturalization based on ancestry - if we'd been Canadian - and would have done so long ago, and we'd not be having this discussion at all.

No, Canadian citizens don't get that either. Although Ireland allows people born abroad to use an Irish grandparent to claim Irish citizenship, British law does not go as far back in the line as using a grandparent to claim British citizenship. Canadians’ who claim Irish citizenship through an Irish grandparent, have to do what you are doing to live in the UK.

What you might be thinking of is the Ancestry visa that Canadian citizens with a grandparent born in the UK can apply for and US citizens can't?

That Ancestry visa is 5 year work visa. They still have at least 6 years before they can apply to be a British citizen. They can bring in a spouse but their children can only come with them if the child is under age 18 when they apply. All the family must pay a fee of £200 per year to use the NHS without charge (1k up front for each person). No access to any UK public funds for at least 5 years.

The Irish get a much better deal in the UK than those on a UK visa, or someone using EU law to be in the UK.

 

It's a given that my daughter will need CSI,

Unless you are a worker qualified person and continue to be one at all times.

even though she'd be covered at the Uni,

The universities can't give free NHS. Last year the UK ended free NHS for everyone residing in the UK.

The university may have a GPs surgery that the university students use, but EEA citizens who are students, must still have a CSI or an EHIC from another EEA country (not the UK EHIC as that was tested in court and lost). OR if they are dependant on another EEA citizen who is a continual worker qualified person, they don't need a CSI.

Tier 4 students (using UK immigration rules) who have a visa of more than 6 months, now have to pay the Immigration Health Surcharge with their visa application to be able to use the NHS without charge: presently £150 a year for students. Those that have a visa of 6 months or less, must pay the NHS at point of use, with 50% added to the bill  if they don’t have insurance to pay.

In 2010, the UK insisted that EEA self sufficient and their families have a CSI to be a "qualified person" in the UK and the same for EEA students. Then they added the families of EEA students must have a CSI too. They could still use the NHS for free though, because of the law on who had free use of the NHS, but they needed a CSI. The UK started to change that law, but it takes years to change laws.

I've seen plenty of refusals of PR since 2010 because EEA citizens didn't have a CSI when not in work, but to date I have not seen a refusal of PR when they were not in work, held a CSI but used the NHS without paying.

This is confusing.  Are you saying that these EEA people have to pay for CSI but then get to use the NHS for free? 

Hi Boston - That's my understanding as well. The last time I looked (last year), if you live in Scotland and are planning to stay, you get to use NHS like a regular resident if you are EU or not EU. Short term students need CSI, long-term students pay a very nominal fee for access to NHS for a year across the UK since they're not staying.  In all of the UK you get to use NHS for emergency care, I think, regardless of status, but if you need more than emergency care you have to pay for it unless you are a settled resident. (You can still use the NHS, you're just going to have to pay.) Unless you are a worker from the EU or elsewhere and in-work, and then you can use it as would  a resident (free, or mostly free). 

You have to have CSI if you are not working, as an EU person, to remain a Qualified Person and then be able to do the 5 year paperwork and eventual application for naturalization. But you can use the NHS during that time while you have CSI and it doesn't penalize you in the process because NHS isn't considered to be in the same class as "public funds" - accessing public funds could throw a kink in your pipeline to naturalization.

I wrote to the UK govmt and asked what constitutes appropriate cover to meet their CSI requirements and got a form message back saying they could not advise on visa types or personal matters. I sent another message asking simply "what constitutes sufficient cover" for their purposes and they referred me to a UK phone number for EU citizens to call. I'm going to keep at it until I get something in writing and will post it.

This is confusing.  Are you saying that these EEA people have to pay for CSI but then get to use the NHS for free?

Yes, they could while the NHS had the rules that everyone who was legally resident in the UK could use the NHS for free. But under EU law, they and their families needed to hold a CSI to be a qualified person as a self sufficient or student as these economically inactive EEA citizens, must not be "an undue burden on another EEA country"  - no welfare or free heathcare from that country.

As the NHS didn't even check if see if they were resident in the UK, even EEA citizens and Brits could come to the UK for a few days to get free treatment when they were meant to pay.

Nearly every post on PR refusals has been because they didn't hold a CSI as required. The usual response is, "but I didn't use the NHS at all" or, "but they never told me I couldn't use it for free" or, "if they had told me then I would have brought a CSI as I wanted to apply for British citizenship". But it is too late as they are back to zero on their 5 years to PR under EU rules, with a year on PR needed before they could apply for British citizenship.

This has happened a lot again now as people want to get British citizenship before Brexit and now they are worried about what will happen to them when EU laws end. They need another 6 years on EU laws, exercising treaty rights at all times (following what they must do at all times to have a right to reside in the UK) and it is doubtfulif they will get that 6 years of EU law.

Some people are saying that they can still use the NHS for free and don't have to use their CSI, but I'm not convinced that is correct now as the rules on using the NHS changed from 6 April 2015. Who can use the NHS for free is clear, EU law is clear and the UK have told them to get a CSI.  When they apply for PR or whatever they might be offered under Brexit, I guess we will find out if they were correct. With the UK talking about a cut-off date, they can't afford to keep restarting their PR clock becasue they ceased to be a qualified person.

Then there is the new Immigration Act 2016 which makes immigration crime, criminal, with time in jail.  As someone said on another forum, there may be thousands of non-EU family members working in the UK when they don't have a right to because their EEA citizen has ceased to be a "qualified person". Meaning that the EEA citizen and all their family members, no longer have a right to reside in the UK, let alone work.