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Topic: If Brexit Happens...  (Read 9476 times)

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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2016, 03:22:19 PM »
Obama already mentioned that a severe clock cleaning was on it's way. 


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2016, 04:22:53 PM »
Sirius, you are a person who knows a lot.  Are you sure you told me about that DPCR before?  You very well could have and I forgot to research it. 

I thought I had, if I have the right person. Married to a French citizen and don't want to go for BC because you don't want to swear allegiance to the queen? It could have been someone else on here and I have muddled it up. I'll check when I get time.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 04:24:16 PM by Sirius »


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2016, 07:34:26 PM »
I am not sure why these two things are being compared. They certainly aren't mutually exclusive.

If GB leaves....they will certainly seek to establish trade relations with the US along the lines of TTIP, only now as an isolated island, instead of as a leader of the World's biggest trading bloc. The US will clean Britain's clock....as it has in every deal since WWII.

But this is all silly talk, the Conservative Party intends on dismantling the NHS, and has been busy doing it by strangling it. They will do this whether in or out of the European Union, and regardless of TTIP.

Our best hope for the NHS is to stay in and lead the TTIP negotiations and reform the EU from within - which is of course what Jeremy Corbyn is advocating.

The problem isn't the EU at all....or immigrants....or even David Cameron in particular....but the Conservative Party.
Preach on brother! Haha I see so many blaming us, the EU, etc. No it's the Tories and their rich buddies that would just love to privatise the NHS. It wasn't the EU that ruined public transport, and utilities through privatisation, nor did they sell off Royal Mail for a song. It was bad UK politics (not all Tory I admit).

We need to stay in the EU, elect real MEPs (not UKIP frauds that don't show up out of "protest") and advocate for our best interests.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2016, 09:05:19 PM »
The problem isn't the EU at all....or immigrants....or even David Cameron in particular....but the Conservative Party.

It always is.   They're the nasty party.   Just like the GOP, except that the GOP are the nasty and also borderline insane party.

That said if Labour had been listening to the genuine concerns of their lower paid supporters about the effect of labour arbitrage from the EU free movement, and not simply dismissing them all as racist bigots, then we wouldn't be having a referendum (and if we were it wouldn't be so close).

I see several senior labour figures have written op-eds in the past month recognizing the valid concerns of their constituents regarding competition for work, school places etc.   It's too bl**dy late to be recognizing this now - it needed to happen 5 years ago when the effects of the 2004 EU enlargement were starting to really be felt.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 09:08:52 PM by sdt99 »


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 01:08:31 PM »
I thought I had, if I have the right person. Married to a French citizen and don't want to go for BC because you don't want to swear allegiance to the queen? It could have been someone else on here and I have muddled it up. I'll check when I get time.

That's me!  You are right. 

I


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2016, 03:13:12 PM »

TBH, if I was you, I would be more worried about the TTIP EU/US deal and the loss of the NHS in it's present form, than the Leave vote. You have automatically got PR in the UK and you work, you also have experience of US companies and a health service. Cameron is said to be in favour of the TTIP for the EU and therefore he won't veto it. Have a search on google, have a read and judge for yourself.

I agree the main concern for me is the forgone conclusion that TTIP will be signed.  It has so many things within it that will harm the European economy, protection of health and the environment.  If you have any doubts look into NAFTA (North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement) to see what our future will be.  The main section is ISDS clause which in NAFTA is Chapter 11.  I did a mini dissertation on TTIP and the impact of it within the labour law. I should make it clear that TTIP will not affect labour law as much as say health, the environment and the economy and I only focused on the ISDS clause.  Within NAFTA Chapter 11 Mexico has lost at lest two million jobs whilst the USA has lost over a million since the inception of NAFTA.  I could not find any facts for Canada.  But Canada has paid close to a billion in fines for legislation it has passed to protect the environment and peoples of Canada against unscrupulous companies and harmful business practices.  For my paper I used five cases.  Out of four of the cases against Canada they paid £164,920,000 whilst one case is still pending because Canada will not repeal and environmental law which the tribunal has agreed against.  It is respect of protecting the environment and until Canada repeals the legislation the fine is accumulating.  Within the EU there are two key cases from the CJEU which outlines the decline of labour law which protects the working class.  The two cases are Viking and Level. Because of these two cases a number of conventions cannot be now exercised.  We cannot claim national security so we must follow these rulings within UK courts as they are binding.  Whilst French firm Veolia is suing Egypt because they dared to implement a minimum wage to protect their citizens from being taken advantage of.  This is causing a race to the bottom of all nations to protect profit for the few (one percenters). 

Under and ISDS clause that the UK is part of Eurotunnel company has successfully filed a claim against the UK twice due to the issues around the immigration crisis and the inability of the UK and France to protect their business interests.  The first fine we paid six million and the second fine there is no actual figure of the fine that I came across but both the UK and France lost the tribunal hearing and both have to pay.  These costs to the government, which by the way you and I pay via taxes, do not include the costs we inure whilst researching and defending cases.  Thus if we do become part of TTIP we will see claims against the UK rise to about the same level that Canada currently has.   

There are a number of other concerns within the EU but this is my key one and no one, as far as I am aware, have really discussed it in the debates.  But I have not seen everything. 



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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2016, 03:32:57 PM »

If GB leaves....they will certainly seek to establish trade relations with the US along the lines of TTIP, only now as an isolated island, instead of as a leader of the World's biggest trading bloc. The US will clean Britain's clock....as it has in every deal since WWII.

As of 2013 The UNCTAD (United Nations Conference on Trade and Development has reported that there were 3,000 agreements and 514 arbitration cases.  Yes if we leave will resume trade negotiations with the USA but it does not mean that we have to include an ISDS within the agreement.  We buy a lot of items from the USA and like or not no country is all powerful nor an island.  And maybe it is time to stop using these clauses as it only protects the small number of very wealthy people and has caused the increasing disparity of the population economically. 

But this is all silly talk, the Conservative Party intends on dismantling the NHS, and has been busy doing it by strangling it. They will do this whether in or out of the European Union, and regardless of TTIP.

I agree with you.  I think Mr Hunt is attempting to implement that plan and I do not see staying in the EU will stop that.  I think there are a number of Tory party members who will benefit financially from this.  It is a shame that the Labour and Liberal Democratic party are too weak to fight this.  I think it is time that people start standing up to their elected MPs and vote out a large swath of them and get in new blood.  But we would really need a new caliber of candidates and not from the same old cohort. 

Our best hope for the NHS is to stay in and lead the TTIP negotiations and reform the EU from within - which is of course what Jeremy Corbyn is advocating.

I would love to hear your view on how you came to this assessment?  I wonder because I have come to a different conclusion and would love to hear your views. 

The problem isn't the EU at all....or immigrants....or even David Cameron in particular....but the Conservative Party.

I personally blame a lot on David Cameron because he has mislead the people for a long time.  I also think there is discussions that need to be had about immigration.  The UK is a small island and there is only so much of a population it can sustain.  Here in Kent green land is being built on at an alarming rate.  I worry that there will be a tipping point where we cannot go back from and be unable to sustain our population.  I fear we have already gotten there.  A country needs to be able to feed its population and if we keep building at this rate we will not.  I do not think we should be dependant upon importation of food stuff as much as we are.  We also need to protect our outdoor spaces for recreation etc. 


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2016, 09:37:26 PM »
I agree the main concern for me is the forgone conclusion that TTIP will be signed. 

Is it a forgone conclusion? Or more importantly, if it is a foregone conclusion, if the world is in a place now where these things are unstoppable, what does that mean?

Because I am picturing Britain across the table from the US, like it was with Keynes or with Suez, or as we will see when Chilcot is published (if it is transparent)....and I am no US flag waver....but there is no real comparison between the two. I am wondering what power Britain can use in these negotiations.

And if we are talking about a post-EU Conservative Government, I am thinking that any settlement will not be based on worker rights or strengthening of the NHS. 

I also think there is discussions that need to be had about immigration.  The UK is a small island and there is only so much of a population it can sustain.  Here in Kent green land is being built on at an alarming rate.  I worry that there will be a tipping point where we cannot go back from and be unable to sustain our population.  I fear we have already gotten there.  A country needs to be able to feed its population and if we keep building at this rate we will not.  I do not think we should be dependant upon importation of food stuff as much as we are.  We also need to protect our outdoor spaces for recreation etc. 

Has there been any indication that Britain can't feed itself?



« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:40:35 PM by sonofasailor »
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2016, 09:43:16 AM »
Is it a forgone conclusion? Or more importantly, if it is a foregone conclusion, if the world is in a place now where these things are unstoppable, what does that mean?

Because I am picturing Britain across the table from the US, like it was with Keynes or with Suez, or as we will see when Chilcot is published (if it is transparent)....and I am no US flag waver....but there is no real comparison between the two. I am wondering what power Britain can use in these negotiations.

And if we are talking about a post-EU Conservative Government, I am thinking that any settlement will not be based on worker rights or strengthening of the NHS. 

Has there been any indication that Britain can't feed itself?

Considering how much food is binned in this country, I'd say no.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2016, 11:35:18 AM »
Considering how much food is binned in this country, I'd say no.

Yeah, but if you look at where the food is coming from, a lot of it comes from other countries. It's not just from the UK...
The usual. American girl meets British guy. They fall into like, then into love. Then there was the big decision. The American traveled across the pond to join the Brit. And life was never the same again.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2016, 12:30:10 PM »
Results for 2014 showed that 61.7% of adults were overweight or obese.

https://www.noo.org.uk/NOO_about_obesity/adult_obesity/UK_prevalence_and_trends

Are we worrying about the right thing?
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2016, 02:58:58 PM »
I agree the main concern for me is the forgone conclusion that TTIP will be signed.  It has so many things within it that will harm the European economy, protection of health and the environment.  If you have any doubts look into NAFTA (North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement) to see what our future will be.  The main section is ISDS clause which in NAFTA is Chapter 11.  I did a mini dissertation on TTIP and the impact of it within the labour law. I should make it clear that TTIP will not affect labour law as much as say health, the environment and the economy and I only focused on the ISDS clause.  Within NAFTA Chapter 11 Mexico has lost at lest two million jobs whilst the USA has lost over a million since the inception of NAFTA.  I could not find any facts for Canada.  But Canada has paid close to a billion in fines for legislation it has passed to protect the environment and peoples of Canada against unscrupulous companies and harmful business practices.  For my paper I used five cases.  Out of four of the cases against Canada they paid £164,920,000 whilst one case is still pending because Canada will not repeal and environmental law which the tribunal has agreed against.  It is respect of protecting the environment and until Canada repeals the legislation the fine is accumulating.  Within the EU there are two key cases from the CJEU which outlines the decline of labour law which protects the working class.  The two cases are Viking and Level. Because of these two cases a number of conventions cannot be now exercised.  We cannot claim national security so we must follow these rulings within UK courts as they are binding.  Whilst French firm Veolia is suing Egypt because they dared to implement a minimum wage to protect their citizens from being taken advantage of.  This is causing a race to the bottom of all nations to protect profit for the few (one percenters). 

Under and ISDS clause that the UK is part of Eurotunnel company has successfully filed a claim against the UK twice due to the issues around the immigration crisis and the inability of the UK and France to protect their business interests.  The first fine we paid six million and the second fine there is no actual figure of the fine that I came across but both the UK and France lost the tribunal hearing and both have to pay.  These costs to the government, which by the way you and I pay via taxes, do not include the costs we inure whilst researching and defending cases.  Thus if we do become part of TTIP we will see claims against the UK rise to about the same level that Canada currently has.   

There are a number of other concerns within the EU but this is my key one and no one, as far as I am aware, have really discussed it in the debates.  But I have not seen everything.

That surprised me too but they have been trying to keep it quiet. Further talks on TTIP will not be held until after the UKs vote.

Greenpeace certainly has a lot to say on TTIP in "leaks".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ttip-leak-greenpeace-trade-deal-eu-us-tpp-ceta-health-environment-a7014731.html

The idea of the EU turning the running of countries over to private companies, has good and bad points. The bad seems to be that if a government tries to step in to protect their citizens, then as you said, the companies can sue them.

I agree that in the UK, TTIP will mainly affect health (NHS, environment, lower health standards for food) more than labour rules in the UK, mainly because the UK opted out of the EU rules on short working hours. Although TTIP labour changes might affect the UK state workers who expect to only work 9 to 5 and have long holidays, and the staff of private companies that haven't implemented longer working weeks yet.

 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 03:21:55 PM by Sirius »


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2016, 03:25:21 PM »
Yeah, but if you look at where the food is coming from, a lot of it comes from other countries. It's not just from the UK...

The UK buys more from the EU than they sell to the EU. The UK is the biggest customer for Germany and Spain. The UK buys more from outside the EU.

It struck me as very sad when a Commonwealth country like New Zealand, had job losses because the EU told the UK that they must buy from EU countries.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 03:33:56 PM by Sirius »


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2016, 04:53:10 PM »
In his speech, Corbyn said: “Today we give this pledge: as it stands, we too would reject TTIP – and veto it in Government.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-ttip-free-trade-deal-eu-us-eu-referendum-brexit_uk_57500b9ce4b040e3e8190ef3

We have a way forward!
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2016, 05:13:18 PM »
Jut for comparison:

David Cameron has said a trade deal between the EU and US is not dead despite France threatening to veto the proposal in its current form.

The prime minister said it would take “political courage to get it over the line” but the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) would be good for British people.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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