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Topic: Previous (same sex) relationship.  (Read 6824 times)

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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2004, 03:06:45 AM »
Why volunteer any info you don't need to, particularly if it might raise questions about your intent in moving here/getting married? I would state myself as single if I were you, given that your legal binding was in NYC alone (not recognized by the state as a whole), it dissolves with no formality should you get married, and, to my knowledge, it doesn't fit any of the UK categories. I don't mean this as "stay in the closet" at all. But why add such complications to what's already a complicated process? For example, how would someone proclaim it here if, at some point, they'd lived with someone long enough for the relationship to be considered a "common-law marriage" by the U.S. government? I strongly recommend you volunteer no unnecessary information unless asked directly. Just my two cents' worth. It's immigration you're dealing with, not a priest. :)


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2004, 03:49:45 AM »
 I have done more research and found this:

"Should We Have Any Concerns About Registering as Domestic Partners?
The City Clerk has established procedures to ensure the confidentiality of Domestic Partnership Registration records. Your registered Certificate is not public information."



« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 04:22:26 AM by sweetpeach »


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2004, 05:50:17 AM »
Interesting Sweetpeach....
Perhaps Garry or someone can shed some light on that...?

I do agree that one shouldn't give more information than is required - for all sorts of reasons.  This is why I went and applied in person...so that I was not submitting too much information, but if they asked for it I could give it to them in person and answer any questions that arose.  However, I still think that if you considered your relationship serious enough to register it with the government, then I think that you're better reporting it.  I also think that this situation DOES fit the UK category of "relationship akin to marriage"...I mean, if you and your ex COULD have gotten married - let's assume that was the only option, no partnership registry - wouldn't you have wed?   Or no?

If you want to strike a balance between saying too much and not saying enough, perhaps you could mention the partnership, prove that the relationship has long ended, and leave it at that.  Should the consulate have further questions, they'll ask you. 
ANOTHER option: Contac the consulate and ask "I'm having a little trouble becuase my situation does not fit into an easy category.  ...If I had a registered domestic partnership, but never considered the relationship to be akin to marriage, do I need to include it?"

Garry made an important point earlier...

Considering the consequences, I'm surprised there has been any debate about it.

The advice I give comes from an admitted worry-wart, but - good advice for anything in life - I'd much rather have a little more hassle explaining the truth than have to explain why I was caught in a lie.  (Or half-truth   :-\\\\  ).


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2004, 06:15:09 AM »
  We have been living separately for about 1/2 a year. However, we won't be able to officially cancel the domestic partnership till after I apply for my visa because of scheduling issues.

Hmmm.

I wonder if the Home Office would be persuaded by the dental work story. I think it is a hard argument to make, myself.

I think you need to disclose the relationship, particularly if you were living together with her.

Note that the Home Office is strict about this requirement, so far as I am aware, because they can use the unmarried partnership visa for less straightforward cases (e.g. where you can't yet obtain a divorce for some reason). You would not meet the length of relationship requirements on the unmarried partnership visa, so I would think that it would really be better for you if you resolved your "scheduling issues" and dissolved the domestic partnership before applying for the visa.

They may still give you the fiancee or spousal visa, but I would not be AT ALL shocked if it was refused. Why risk it?

Personally, if I were you, I would either change my visa application date to be after the dissolution of the partnership, or, if you absolutely cannot do that for some reason, then I think you will be in the unenviable position of having to cancel the domestic partnership before all the dental work is done. That is hard, but them's your options, at least that is how I would see it, if I were you.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 06:21:10 AM by misch »


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2004, 08:01:32 AM »


Hmmm.

I wonder if the Home Office would be persuaded by the dental work story. I think it is a hard argument to make, myself.

I think you need to disclose the relationship, particularly if you were living together with her.

Note that the Home Office is strict about this requirement, so far as I am aware, because they can use the unmarried partnership visa for less straightforward cases (e.g. where you can't yet obtain a divorce for some reason). You would not meet the length of relationship requirements on the unmarried partnership visa, so I would think that it would really be better for you if you resolved your "scheduling issues" and dissolved the domestic partnership before applying for the visa.

They may still give you the fiancee or spousal visa, but I would not be AT ALL shocked if it was refused. Why risk it?

Personally, if I were you, I would either change my visa application date to be after the dissolution of the partnership, or, if you absolutely cannot do that for some reason, then I think you will be in the unenviable position of having to cancel the domestic partnership before all the dental work is done. That is hard, but them's your options, at least that is how I would see it, if I were you.

Misch, I think you've summed it up rather well.   ;)



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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2004, 11:30:23 AM »
Contac the consulate and ask "I'm having a little trouble becuase my situation does not fit into an easy category.  ...If I had a registered domestic partnership, but never considered the relationship to be akin to marriage, do I need to include it?"


The consulate is uncontact-able. Trust me, I have tried.

A few things:

I am not legally married, divorced or separated.  Divorced and separated implies that I was in a legal marriage. Saying that I was any of those would be lying. Entering my ex-partner's name on the VAF2 as my ex-spouse would be lying. Once I terminate my dp, saying that I am in a relationship akin to marriage would be lying.  The only other choice is single.

In the 17 years that I had been with my partner, I filed my city, state and federal taxes as single, because I had no other choice. My tax status is legally single.  Evem though the city recognizes my relationship, it did not consider it important enough to affect my tax status. If I were married and filed as single, there would have been a problem. In addition, because we were required to file as single, our tax histories are completely separate.

In all that time, my legal marital status was single, and that is the designation I used on any forms I had to fill out.

The VAF2 form is the most important document. The other documentation that needs to be provided (bank statements, etc.) is there as back-up to the VAF2.  If I claim that I am single, then there is nothing to back up. 

If my previous relationship is later discovered, I was not lying on my
VAF2. I was filling it out truthfully to the best of my ability. I haven't been all the way to the end of the form, but generally when you sign a form, you state that you have filled out the form truthfully "to the best of your knowledge." I think it's pretty obvious that my situation creates a dilemma, all I can do is to fill the form out the best way I can. The situation is not the same as if I were knowingly falsifying information--e.g. if I were legally married and said that I was divorced from my spouse.

The reason one needs to provide evidence of divorce is to show there is no impediment to the proposed marriage. If my fiance's divorce had not been finalized, and he were still legally married to his ex, he could not marry me.  On the other hand, domestic partnership is not an impediment to marriage. If I were still living with ex, I could fly to Las Vegas with a man and get married tomorrow. The domestic partnership would dissolve instantly.

The requirements for an unmarried partner visa require that
"Any previous marriage (or similar relationship) by either partner has permanently broken down", however, the Britain.usa Website does not
list proof of this under its list of required documentation. It doesn't even ask for divorce papers, in case the previous relationship was legal marriage. The fiance visa requirements include documentation of termination of a previous marriage. The unmarried partner visa requirements don't list documentation of termination of any previous relationship.

I can bring my dp termination paper with me to the interview. If the subject of previous relationships comes up in the conversation, I can show it to the interviewer.

Because the Britainusa fiance visa requirements mention divorce papers, and the unmarried partner visa requirements do not; and the unmarried partner visa requirements refer to termination of a previous relationship similar to marriage but the fiance visa does not, it seems to me that there is an assumption that if you are married or intending to marry, you either have never been in an unmarried partner situation, or it is not relevant; or if you are an in unmarried partner situation, you have never been married.

If the interviewer asks me if I have ever been married before, I can truthfully answer no. If the interviewer asks me if I have ever been in a relationship similar to marriage before, I can truthfully answer yes and provide my domestic partnership termination papers.  If my dp had not been terminated by that time (although I am pretty sure it will have been), I can explain the situation. I don't believe I should volunteer information that is not solicited.



« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 12:24:03 PM by sweetpeach »


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2004, 12:45:39 PM »
Sweetpeach, it seems to me you have been given some good advice in this thread. Whether you follow it or not is up to you. if you want my 2p worth, you can't have it both ways. Your previous relationship was akin to marriage and should therefore be declared. You can't now say because it was a gay relationship, it somehow didn't count. Do what you want, declare it or don't declare it, it really makes no difference to me but I hope we don't see a post from you in a few weeks bleating that you didn't get your visa because you chose to omit this very relevant information, or that there is a problem with the spouse visa later because you were ecconomical with the truth this time.  Also, you should be careful what you post on here, how do you know none of us works for the Home Office?


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2004, 12:49:34 PM »
Ditto what Britwife has said.

You have had a 17 year relationship with someone that was, as much as the law would allow it AKIN TO MARRIAGE.  And now because declaring it might be a bit messy (whose life isn't?), you want to act as if it never happened factually?

Reminds me of one of the Kennedys wanting to annul a VERY long marriage that had produced 3 children just so he could marry his new girlfriend in a Catholic church.

Like Britwife said, you can't have it both ways.  At some point it is highly likely that, yes, someone may be a bit suspicious or at the very least curious about someone applying for a fiancee visa who is STILL technically in a same-sex relationship that is 17 years long.  Deal with it.
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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2004, 02:24:22 PM »
It would be helpful to me if someone who had been to an in-person interview could explain how it is done. Do I hand in everything all at once, or do they ask me for documents? If  I have to hand in everything at once, I would include the proper paperwork showing my dp termination. If they ask for specific documents one at a time, then I will provide what is asked. For example, if they look at my bank statement and determine that I have enough money to live in the UK, there's no reason to provide an additional letter of support from a  relative, even though I will have one.

I am having the relationship terminated before I apply.  I am not pretending that it never happened.  If I were questioned about it, I would not lie.  I will have the appropriate paperwork with me.  If for some reason, I could not terminate the relationship before I had to apply for the visa, and I was questioned, I would state truthfully that the domestic partnership ends when I marry.  In fact, it ends when I leave the United States, because it is only recognized in New York City.

I am not talking about lying. I am talking about not volunteering information that was not solicited anyway.

I'll try to think of an analogy:

Suppose when applying for your visa, you showed a bank statement which stated had $10,000. Suppose you had verbally promised an uncle that you would give him $5,000 after you received the visa. Would you attach a letter to your bank statement saying that even though the statement says $10,000, you'll only have half as much when you move to the UK? It's certainly relevant information. If you are planning an unusally large, expensive wedding, and paying for it yourself, are you going to mention it? That would affect the amount of money you need to live in the UK without benefits.

Before you say that it is not analagous because the above does not refer to a legal contract:
I am applying to move to the UK. The domestic partnership is not legally binding in the UK. It is only applicable in New York City.
This is what the dp means.

1. If your partner is arrested you can visit them in jail in New York City.
2. If they are very sick, you can visit them in the hospital in New York City.
3. If you are living in their apartment  in New York City, and they die, you can't be evicted.
4. I you work for New York City, your partner can get health benefits.
5. If you work for a private company in New York City, your company may provide your partner with health benefits, if they want to, but you will have to pay taxes on these benefits that a married couple would not.

That is all it means. No inheritance rights, no power of attorney, no filing taxes as a member of a married couple. Nothing else that married couples take for granted. You are still legally single. 

If you are married in the US and you and your spouse move to the UK, you do not have to get married again. If my partner and I were still together and moved to the UK, we would have to apply for a similar status all over again.

If I were to move out of New York City to live in the suburbs, the domestic partnership would not be legally valid.

It is interesting information, but the dp registration is not  legally valid anywhere but New York City.

Anyone who wanted to check the city clerk's records would need a search warrant.

Anyone on this board who wants my ISP to provide information about my identity would need a search warrant.
Please don't threaten me.

Britwife, I am offended that you think I would consider a 17-year gay relationship to be less emotionally significant than a marriage because it is gay.  I am stating, truthfully, that such a relationship is legally far from equivalent to a marriage. That is why people are fighting for the right of gays to marry.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 03:10:29 PM by sweetpeach »


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2004, 02:45:07 PM »
Sweetpeach, why do you not want to mention the relationship?  Is it because it was a same-sex partnership and you're afraid that will raise doubt about the authenticity of your current relationship?  If that's the case, I can see where you're coming from.  Being in a same-sex relationship for 17 years and then, within six months being engaged to a member of the opposite sex will undoubtedly raised some questions.  But if you're not prepared to answer those questions, perhaps you're not ready to apply for your visa. 

It doesn't matter that you'll have the relationship terminated before you apply.  If you were getting a divorce from a man right before you applied, you'd still have to mention the relationship.  Just because it's over doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You were in a relationship/living with the woman in question for 17 years.  If that's not a relationship akin to marriage, then I don't know what is.  Then you took it a step further and had your relationship legally recognised by the city.  You didn't have to take that step, but you did.  No, you can't have it "annulled" or get a "divorce", but that's just semantics.  You are currently legally tied to the woman and that has to be mentioned on your visa application.  No, you weren't/aren't "married", but again, that's just semantics.  You are as married as you can legally be to this woman.  Would we tell someone to leave divorce/separation/annulment information out of their application?  No way!  The same holds true for your situation.

I get the sense that you're waiting for someone to tell you that it's okay to leave it out of your application.  Here I go--leave it out.  But be prepared to deal with the consequences.  We can give you all the advice you want, but ultimately, we're not the ones standing in line at the consulate.  If you think that there's no way they'll find out about the previous, legally-recognised relationship, go for it.  But as someone else said, don't be surprised or complain when you're application is denied.



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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2004, 03:14:31 PM »
It doesn't matter that you'll have the relationship terminated before you apply.  If you were getting a divorce from a man right before you applied, you'd still have to mention the relationship.  Just because it's over doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You were in a relationship/living with the woman in question for 17 years.  If that's not a relationship akin to marriage, then I don't know what is.  Then you took it a step further and had your relationship legally recognised by the city.  You didn't have to take that step, but you did.  No, you can't have it "annulled" or get a "divorce", but that's just semantics.  You are currently legally tied to the woman and that has to be mentioned on your visa application. 



I can bring the paperwork showing my dp termination with me to the interview. I can mention it in a letter.  I cannot state on my application that I am divorced. That would be a lie. It is not semantics. Divorce is a legal term. 

« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 03:19:06 PM by sweetpeach »


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2004, 03:17:54 PM »
Did I say you should use "divorced"?  Nope.  Did I say you should lie?  Nope.

Do whatever you want.  Good luck.


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2004, 03:19:58 PM »
You bring up a good point about annulment. Has anyone ever mentioned an annulment on an application? I've never heard it referred to before. How did they do it? I could do the same. "Marriage annulled" is not a legal status on the VAF2 either.

What other possible (non-marital-related) circumstances should one mention that aren't specifically mentioned in the VAF2?

« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 03:21:55 PM by sweetpeach »


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2004, 03:22:53 PM »
My advice?  Keep trying to contact the Consulate.  Try a different one than the NY one.  I had no trouble calling the LA Consulate whilst applying for my visa.  I had to sit on hold for 20 mins but I did talk to an actual human being.  

Legally you are single, but you were in a relationship akin to marriage.  That's what akin to marriage means.  I completely agree with what Peedal, Britwife and Lola have told you.  Don't be surprised if applying for a fiancee visa to be with a man raises some eyebrows after being in a gay relationship for 17 years and likewise, don't be surprised if your application is denied.
Love your life, poor as it is. You may perhaps have some pleasant, thrilling, glorious hours, even in a poorhouse. The setting sun is reflected from the windows of the almshouse as brightly as from the rich man’s abode; the snow melts before its doors as early in the spring. Cultivate property like a garden herb, like sage. Do not trouble yourself much to get new things, whether clothes or friends. Turn the old; return to them. Things do not change; we change. Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts…


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Re: Previous (same sex) relationship.
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2004, 03:26:08 PM »
You bring up a good point about annulment. Has anyone ever mentioned an annulment on an application? I've never heard it referred to before. How did they do it? I could do the same. "Marriage annulled" is not a legal status on the VAF2 either.

What other possible (non-marital-related) circumstances should one mention that aren't specifically mentioned in the VAF2?



IMO, an annulment is a divorce.  If I'd had a marriage annuled, I'd probably put that I was divorced and then provide annulment papers.  Regardless of the method of termination, a marriage is still a marrige. 
Love your life, poor as it is. You may perhaps have some pleasant, thrilling, glorious hours, even in a poorhouse. The setting sun is reflected from the windows of the almshouse as brightly as from the rich man’s abode; the snow melts before its doors as early in the spring. Cultivate property like a garden herb, like sage. Do not trouble yourself much to get new things, whether clothes or friends. Turn the old; return to them. Things do not change; we change. Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts…


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