Getting started with NHS

Well, for our purposes, having it in writing from the head of a major policy area in the national government that as EU self-sufficient and dependent we are to be treated as if we were ordinarily resident from day 1 by the NHS is good enough for us.... 

Nan, you should find a dentist now.  Then if/when you have a dental emergency, you'll be all set with one you know already.

A lot of them are private, my old dentist went private so I left the practice on principle but I have a really great dentist at a NHS practice now.  A friend of mine stayed with the private practice and she's happy with that.   It's nice to have the choice. 

Yep, that's on the "to do" list, but I haven't a clue how to find a good one. The daughter is not any help, as most of her friends here are college kids and that's not exactly high on their list of priorities (having a dentist).

So, out of curiosity, what sort of costs does one incur at a dentist here, if paying a private dentist? Say for a routine check-up and cleaning? Ballpark figures? (If anyone has that info for Glasgow specifically, it'd be appreciated.)

So, out of curiosity, what sort of costs does one incur at a dentist here, if paying a private dentist? Say for a routine check-up and cleaning? Ballpark figures? (If anyone has that info for Glasgow specifically, it'd be appreciated.)

We live in NE England and having just registered with a private dentist I can can you a list of their fees which I would think give you a guideline.

Routine exam £42
Hygienst visit £53.80
Non Routine radiographs (X-rays) £2.80 per film
Root treatment £220 - £370 per tooth (molar is £370)
fillings from £88.20 per tooth
crowns vary on complexity but I did ask about the type of porcelain crown that I have on a molar and he said £400

Thanks!   That's quite reasonable.

Well, for our purposes, having it in writing from the head of a major policy area in the national government that as EU self-sufficient and dependent we are to be treated as if we were ordinarily resident from day 1 by the NHS is good enough for us.... 

What EEA citizens are given is UK wide for the four NHS. Just so long as you understand that the UK can stop that free access to the NHS at any time for those EEA citizens that are not economically active, with or without Brexit, as allowed under the 2004 Directive. Just as a member state can change what an EEA worker or jobseeker is retrospectively and the same for other European Court of Justice routes for non- EEA citizens, as the UK have done in recent years with the latest changes being in February this year. Changes which mean many are now refused PR in the UK, when they hoped to get citizenship before Brexit.

The UK has often stopped giving EEA citizens things that they previously allowed them to have, even for those that were already in the UK. A member state is allowed to apply these changes retrospectively under EU law. If I was to list all the changes that I know, that reduced what EEA citizens are given in the UK, I would be here all day. 

This 'EEA citizens can have what a citizen of a member state can have' isn't true if that member state changes what an EEA qualified person is in their country, or decides to follow the EU Directive more closely. Because of this, what an EEA citizen is givien in one member state, they may not be given in another.

It's just something to be aware of, that your letter does not mean it is forever.

Hi Sirius -

Of course, nothing is forever. Even when I was working back in the states my employer changed our benefits packages at will, so all we can do is work with what we have "in hand". Will deal with changes later on.

Am also looking at plan "J" - (we're down to that letter now) where to go if things go south and it becomes necessary for the Daughter to leave the UK. Looking at other EU countries.  Too bad Ireland won't let her in. (That is especially galling since the law that defined the effective date of my citizenship changed one week before she was born - had she been born two weeks earlier, she'd have an Irish passport right now). Germany is appealing, but not likely - I don't think they'd let her in. It's a bit frustrating, as I can go but she cannot, to so many places, apparently. Well, we'll see if that changes when she has her graduate degree.... doubtful, but maybe.

Am also looking at plan "J" - (we're down to that letter now) where to go if things go south and it becomes necessary for the Daughter to leave the UK.

You have the Tier 4 visa and maybe the Tier 2 visa too.

It's too early to call it yet and they might let everyone stay if the UK follows the German model. Germany has managed to keep the numbers in their country at the same level for years.


Since the UK did the, ‘don’t come for what you can take, but instead for what you can bring’  bit, massive changes have been brought in/are coming in.

By looking at what benefits those who aren’t British or weren’t British when they arrived in the UK are taking and ending or changing those, other countries benefits are now more attractive from this year. Most planned from 2008/9 and slowly winding their way through Parliament to make new laws, long before the Leave vote last year.


The NHS is toast and has been for the last couple of decades. The “cradle to grave”  model only works if you stick to the 'everyone paying their 40/50 years of working taxes to the UK' and keeping net immigration numbers low. The UK stuck to a 50,000 net migration limit for many decades, up to about the mid 90s.

But in about 2003, the NHS was thrown into a severe financial crisis. Instead of dealing with the problem by making tough changes, or better still doing this before there was a financial crises for the health service as other countries did, the then government at the time played 'kick the can down the road' by bringing in PFIs for 5% of the entire NHS!  By doing this they made some private firms very rich, and still are, while throwing the NHS into ever growing, multi billions of debts for the decades still to come-

2012
Blair defends PFI as NHS trusts face bankruptcy

Tony Blair has defended the spread of private finance initiatives under Labour as seven NHS trusts face administration as they struggle to repay large debts from PFI deals.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9356942/Blair-defends-PFI-as-NHS-trusts-face-bankruptcy.html


Over 5 million more people in the UK now and less people paying taxes than there was 10 years ago, Brits know changes will have to come in for the NHS, and soon. A lot of people already have private insurance now and some employers offer that as a perk with the job.

Better benefits in other EEA countries now from this year and changes needed for the NHS, I wouldn’t rule out being able to stay on Brexit as numbers should dwindle.


 

Too bad Ireland won't let her in. (That is especially galling since the law that defined the effective date of my citizenship changed one week before she was born - had she been born two weeks earlier, she'd have an Irish passport right now).

Ireland has quite high unemployment. They are also one of the countries that did act to protect their healthcare system. It's something like 60 Euros for a doctors appointment, 100E for a trip to A&E. Children over age 5 to be paid for too, unless their family only earns below 14K. No free prescriptions, but capped at 140E per month. It's also insurance based and private insurance is needed too. There is more Irish living in England than there are in Ireland.

However, if Ireland is where you want to be, once your daughter has citizenship from another EEA country via you exercising your treaty rights there for at least 5 + years, she can then go to Ireland to exercise her own treaty rights. Then get Irish citizenship after exercising treaty rights there for 5+ years. With citizenship, she can then always live in Ireland.

Germany is appealing, but not likely - I don't think they'd let her in.

It’s the same way you were able to bring her to the UK. Germany can’t stop you  taking your Direct Family Members to Germany to live, just so long as you are being a qualified person at all times in their country.

Hi Sirius.

My preference is to stay here. The Irish connection would only be (as far as I'm concerned) to get her EU status.  Her degrees (assuming she completes them) should make her highly qualified, but in a very narrow and specialized field. There should be work for her, but I would imagine she'll have to relocate for it.  We'll see.

There is a degree program  in Ireland that is very interesting to her, but again we have to do the "Nan moves to provide a place to live while pursuing the degree" model and I'd really rather stay put. I very much like it here. There's also a PhD program in Germany that is of great interest, and the tuition and fees would be more manageable for her there. BUT, we don't speak German, and there's the "move to provide..." thing again. Still, if it's what is necessary, I'll deal with it.

We have some time to work things out, and I hope we don't need to go - we both really, really like it here in Scotland. I had contacted the pertinent offices re: Germany in the past and was told there was no provision for bringing an adult dependent child in on a family permit. Of course, that was back when I was asking about doing it directly from the USA, not from another EU country. (She'd be welcome on a student permit, of course.)  We'll be here for two years, at least....

I had contacted the pertinent offices re: Germany in the past and was told there was no provision for bringing an adult dependent child in on a family permit.

There isn't as there is no automatic right for Extended Famaily Members as the EU only asks that the member state try to facilitate these. This makes the decision up to that country and there is no right of appeal if they are refused. This is now written into the UK EEA Regs at the end of last year on the back of the Sala court ruling: much to the upset of some legal people who were making thousands out of these EFM who were refused a RC, by putting appeal after appeal in, even though all that time they were not legal in the UK and their immigration history was getting trashed.


To be sure that she could go with you under EU rules, you would need to do what you did for the UK and prove that although your daughter is over 21, she is still dependent on you. That way she is classed as a Direct Family Member and these have an automatic right under EU law, to reside in the member state where their EEA citizen is being a qualified person (at all times).

Of course, that was back when I was asking about doing it directly from the USA, not from another EU country.

Doesn't make any difference as you can move from country to country and you have a right to reside in that country legally, as long as you are a qualified person by that 90 days that the Directive allows and then remain one at all times. It was the European Court of Justice who said that non-EEA nationals were allowed to enter the EU as family members, not the EEA countries who agreed to this as many didn't agree with that ruling.

  We'll be here for two years, at least....

It's up to two years from when the UK gave the article 50 notice to quit the EU last March. Anything longer will have to be negotiated by the UK and EU, if any agreement can be reached.

Well, we'll see how it shakes out. I've been advised that as long as she's a student, she's pretty much considered to be a direct dependent, so, heaven forbid we have to move on, we've got that.

I am not expecting Brexit to proceed in an orderly fashion or for all the legalities to be completed in two years from the time it kicked off. So I think we've got the better part of the two year limit left, as a worst case. It will be interesting to watch....

It will be interesting to watch....

It already is. We have Tusk, the ex PM of Poland, saying "it's a hard Brexit or no Brexit" but in the latest list he has sent, he has done a U turn and now wants a soft Brexit for the EU. Wanting his citizens to still be able  to move to the UK in unlimited numbers as usual and he also wants benefits for them in the UK and for benefits to continue for their children living back in Poland. He obviously hasn't read the UK's welfare reforms Acts.

But at the same time we have the EU taking Poland to court as Poland won't take a quota (not unlimited) of economic migrants into  their country Stating that they haven't got room for a few thousand, even though nealry one million of their citizens have moved to the UK and just over one millon have moved to Germany. You couldn't make this up.

As Poland is the biggest taker form the EU budget, the EU are already threatening to contol Poland by reducing the billions they will want from the next EU budget.

The UK has now hired a top negotiator for UK trade deals outside the EU, deals they couldn't do if they remain in the bloc's customs union.

It's all getting very interesting.

Note to self: if we have to move on, make sure it's not to Poland.

Germany is appealing, but not likely - I don't think they'd let her in. It's a bit frustrating, as I can go but she cannot, to so many places, apparently.

Hi Nan

I'm still fairly sure that this German advice line has not given you the correct information.

It seems from what I am reading, that Germany is expecting to be be the place to go to for those using free movement, if the UK closes it's doors on Brexit (and Germany can't get the UK to take more after Brexit).

Plus the UK government weren't exactly quiet about the fact that from this year, Germany is one of the 3 EU countries that will now have better benefits than the UK (all planned before the Leave vote happened). Which as I said above, is why I think most EU citizens will be able to stay (if the same is allowed for Brits in other EU countries).

Either they are trying to put people off moving to Germany,  or that advice line doesn't know EU law. Under EU law, while Germany is in the EU and there is still free movement in it's present form, then they must take direct family members of an EEA citizen who is a qualified person at all times in their country. They can't stop you bringing your over age 21 daughter if you prove she is still dependant on you. If they try, then appeal and let their courts sort it. Direct family members are allowed to appeal.

I'd still rather stay in Scotland. Although many days I feel like an idiot for  not being able to understand what people are saying to me.  Daughter says I need a hearing aid. I say I need a new "Star Trek" universal translator, because if if we're  speaking English here something's seriously amiss with the one I've got now!

But if Germany's where it's best for her to continue her studies later one, yes, I've had other advice that the original advice was bad.

I am waiting for one last financial document to arrive here and will file for residence permit for me and card for her, and then at least we'll be able to use those, somehow, in the future. I REALLY want to get that application in, but all my financial institutions in the USA are insisting on mailing things to their address of record, and some of those items then go to my overseas forwarding entity, and then are forwarded, so a two-to-three week delay. (I'm told UK govmt insists on originals, not PDFs or photocopies.)  So, once they arrive, we'll expedite that packet forward and cross fingers.

Have I mentioned that I hate sitting and waiting, and not being able to do anything productive in the meantime?    Annnnd, we've hijacked this thread. Sorry, OP!!!!