Family Permit questions

Hello!

My wife and I are looking at moving to England and were hoping to get some advice on how to tackle the paperwork process involved.

A bit of background on our situation: I am a EU citizen, so I am hoping that should ease some of the initial hurdles of moving (although with Brexit, that benefit may not last too long). We are planning on going initially as self-sufficient status under my treaty rights, with the hopes that within a few months of moving, my wife can obtain a job in the UK. She is currently applying for a position on the shortage occupations list so the hope is that even if our EU rights go away, she can get sponsored as a US citizen and obtain a visa to live and work in the UK that way.

Our main question at this point is whether it would be beneficial to apply for a Family Permit given our circumstances.

The hesitation stems from not wishing to send in our passports for a length of time as we will need to travel to the UK to find a place to live / make arrangements, and especially, if I recall correctly, the application itself asks us for our address in the UK, which at this point we do not yet have, nor do we have employment so the fear is that we may get denied simply on those grounds.

From what I have been able to research so far, it seems the main benefit to the Family Permit is to allow her to enter the country more easily and to stay longer than 6mo, which at this point would not be much of a factor as we do often travel, so we would not be in the UK for any stretch longer than 6mo anyway. However, we would also like to avoid the appearance that she is overstaying simply because we are in the UK longer than 6mo even if in short increments.

On a related note, once we have moved and have an address over there, we are planning on applying for a UK Residence Card for her anyway so would that negate the need for the Family Permit?


Thanks for any help & advice!

Jad

We are planning on going initially as self-sufficient status under my treaty rights, with the hopes that within a few months of moving, my wife can obtain a job in the UK.

To be a Self Suffcient "qualified person", you both need to buy a CSIs (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance) each. If you don't work then you both still need those CSIs at all times, even if your wife is working. Her stay and what she can have, is based on what you are doing. Self Sufficients and theiir families must all have a CSI each and can't take UK benefits.

As an EEA citizen, you have 90 days to visit and then to remain in the UK lawfully after that, you must be what the EU calls a "qualified  person" at all times.

Have a read to ensure you (and your wife) remain in the UK lawfully. These are the present rules -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/european-economic-area-nationals-qualified-persons

When in the UK, you will need to keep up to date with all the changes the UK makes for EEA citizens (they did this all the time even before the Leave vote), to ensure you both remain in the UK lawfully.

On a related note, once we have moved and have an address over there, we are planning on applying for a UK Residence Card for her anyway so would that negate the need for the Family Permit?

The family permit is for your non-EEA citizen wife (your family member) to be able to enter the UK easily.
https://www.gov.uk/family-permit

As soon as you become a "qualifed person" then you can both apply for your RCs.

The RC is not like a UK "visa". The EU's RC is given if you prove that you are being a "qualified person" and is given in the expecation that you will remain a "qualfied person" at all times. The RC is for 5 years but both become invalid if you (the EEA citizen) stops being a "qualified person" because then you and your family member have  lost your "right to reside" in the UK under the EU Directive.

Thanks for the reply... that's a lot of useful info!

Have a read to ensure you (and your wife) remain in the UK legally. These are the present rules -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/european-economic-area-nationals-qualified-persons [nofollow]

Looks like we shouldn't have any issue with this as long as we both have CSI. Speaking of which, I am going to check with my present insurance company to see if they do cover us for the majority of risks while in the UK. If they do, do you think UKVI would have an issue with us having a US policy (under the assumption that I have a later stating we are covered in the UK) or do you think it would be best to just get CSI from a company in the UK?

As soon as you become a "qualifed person" then you can both apply for your RCs.

That brings up another good point... do I become a "qualified person" right away when I get there and sign a tenancy agreement, or do I have to wait the 90 days before we can apply for the RCs?


Thanks again!

Its been a while since I put in for my RC, but I believe I had to give proof of my EU citizen partner exercising treaty rights which was essentially his work contract. We preferred to wait until he had a job before I applied for the RC to make it easier, and I have multiple FPs in my passport as we exited once because I was about to run out of time (even though he was looking for a job then). This was before all the CSI stuff came into being.

This was before all the CSI stuff came into being.

I doubt it. The CSI has been a requirement under EU law since April 2004. Non-EEA citizens being allowed to enter the EU as a family member of an EEA citizen, was only from 2008, under a European Court of Justice Ruling called Metock.

This CSI requriement is listed very clearly in the EU's 2004 Directive of Free Movement of People. Under what their "qualfied person" can be to use Free Movement,  that Directive states that to be a self sufficient qualified person they must have a CSI. It states the same for a "Student qualified person" too. Economically inactive EEA citizens must not be an "undue burden"  to another member state: they must have CSIs and can't take welfare.

This 2004 Directive is a simple step by step guide for EEA citizens to read and that they must follow at all times, if they want a "right to reside"" in another member state (be lawfully in another EEA country and to remain lawfully in that country).

However the UK allowed time for people to get these CSIs and didn't enforce the 2004 Directive until 2011.

Huh. Well, never had it, and since the systems in this country aren't in place to track a damn thing, no one ever asked, inquired, or enforced anything. I thought it was in 2015 where they were requiring proof of independent insurance for non-EU citizens? By that point it was a non issue for us anyway.

Thanks for pointing me toward that EU Directive! Looks like that answers my questions.

Neither the Directive nor UKVI's own guidance on CSIs restricts where or by whom it is issued, as long as it "covers the applicant for medical treatment in the majority of circumstances."

Just looked over the RC application as well and they do ask for CSI info on there, although all they ask for is to attest that it provides the coverage required and the dates that the policy is valid.

Thanks for pointing me toward that EU Directive! Looks like that answers my questions.

It will, as that is the guidance for Home Office staff, to check if an EEA citizen is a "qualified person".

As you would have read, you can switch between being any type of qualifed person to have a "right to reside" in the UK, but the 2004 Directive does not allow any time when you cannot be a "qualified person".

The UK is often more relaxed about that and will allow a few days, but don't rely on that.  Under the recent guidance published for when an EEA citizen can be removed from the UK, it stated that if they aren't in the UK lawfully using  EU laws and don't have permission to be in the UK under UK immigration laws, then they are in breach of UK immigration laws.

Having read the Directive on what the EU's "qualfied person" is, you can now see why an RC can become invalid and why the end date on that means nothing. The EU's 2004 Directive is all about the EEA citizen being a "qualified person" at all times to have a "right to reside" in that country.

Neither the Directive nor UKVI's own guidance on CSIs restricts where or by whom it is issued, as long as it "covers the applicant for medical treatment in the majority of circumstances."

Just looked over the RC application as well and they do ask for CSI info on there, although all they ask for is to attest that it provides the coverage required and the dates that the policy is valid.

Have a read of Nan's thread on this
http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=90653.0

I thought it was in 2015 where they were requiring proof of independent insurance for non-EU citizens?

It's not just non-EEA citizens who must be family members of an EEA citizen qualified person. To be lawfully in another EEA country, EEA citizens must also be family members of an EEA who is being a qualifed person, if they aren't being a qualified person themselves.

2015 that you are asking about, was when the UK changed the EEA Regs to bring family members of a Student qualified person, in line with the family members of a Self Sufficeint qualified person, so that these too then needed a CSI each too.
http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=85411.0

Before 2015, Students needed a CSI to be a Student qualifed person in the UK but their family members didn't: whereas to be a Self Suffcient qualified person in the UK, these and all their family members were required to have a CSI each.




From the 2004 Directive on the requrements needed to be a self suffciient qualified person.

 Directive 2004/38/EC

Article 7
Right of residence for more than three months

All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:

………………………..
(b)
have sufficient resources for themselves and their family member not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State;

We preferred to wait until he had a job before I applied for the RC to make it easier, and I have multiple FPs in my passport as we exited once because I was about to run out of time (even though he was looking for a job then).

I've just noticed this. Each of your FP as an Extended Family Member of a EEA citizen, is for 6 months, but an EEA citizen has a time limit to move to another country and look for work as a jobseeker qualfied person. From 2014, the UK made that 91 days and that applied to those already in the UK looking for work as a jobseeker qualfied person.

The beauty of free movement is that we can move to another country to look for work and if we can't find work there during that time limit, we can  move to another EEA country to look for work  and start the time limit again in that country. I'm not sure if exiting every 91 days/6 months, and then re-entering, resets that time to keep the stay in the UK lawful (as a jobseeker qualified person).

However if EEA citizens want the DCPR they need to apply for British citizenship, as many now are applying for before Brexit, they can only have 91 days as a jobseeker to use in the EU's  '5 years in that country being a qualfied person continually, to have PR'.
http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=88876.0

Even if they get the EU's PR (DCPR) the EU's laws for PR are different to the UK laws to be granted British citizenship. The UK's Good Character requirement looks back at their history in the UK over at least 10 years and that includes their immigration history in the UK and crimes, but the EU doesn't want a good character requirement for their PR. EU laws stop at PR.

I am a EU citizen, so I am hoping that should ease some of the initial hurdles of moving (although with Brexit, that benefit may not last too long). We are planning on going initially as self-sufficient status under my treaty rights, with the hopes that within a few months of moving, my wife can obtain a job in the UK. She is currently applying for a position on the shortage occupations list so the hope is that even if our EU rights go away, she can get sponsored as a US citizen and obtain a visa to live and work in the UK that way.

If you change to UK immigration rules (a Tier 2 General visa), under present rules, your time spent in the UK on EU rules would not count towards settlement in the UK and you would both need to leave the UK to apply for entry under UK immigration rules.

If the 10 years of legal stay in the UK for settlement, was still around then, you might be able to use your time in the UK under EU rules, but only if all that time you were lawfully in the UK (you being a qualfied person at all times) and if the UK will allow EU rules to be included in ten years time.

The rules for a visa for a shortage occupation are quite easy as the UK wants these people.

It's limited number of Tier 2 General visas but the shortage occupations are top of the list for the monthly allocation of Certificate of Sponsorships.
Your visas will have end dates as visas don't immediiatley become invalid as the RCs do under EU laws.
If the emplyoyer decides that  they don't want to sponsor your wife anymore (doubtful on a shortage occupation job) a new employer will not have to carry out a 28 day Resident Labour Market Test to check nobody else can do that job as your wife is doing a shortage occupation job.
For settlement, there is no income requirement for her to meet as she is doing a job on the shortages occupation list.
 She can bring you as her dependant and you can work for anyone and do any job or not work.
You won't have to ensure you are a qualified iperson at all times for you both to remain lawfully in the UK and for your wife to be allowed to work.
No CSIs to buy each as you can both use the NHS bill free even if you have exisiting conditions, with payment of the Immigration Health Surcharge.  Presently the IHS is £200 a yer each, paid up front for the duration of the visa.
https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/overview

5 years on the Tier 2 General visas and you can both apply for settlement (ILR) with no IHS to pay anymore. Not cheap, but we don't know yet if EEA citizens will also have to pay this on Brexit.

1 year of hollding ILR and you can both apply for British citizenship. Not cheap, but EEA citizens also have to pay the full fee too, even while the UK is in the EU.

I assume your wife's employer would pay the visas fees for the Tier 2 General visas?

No Brexit to worry about over the next few year as you would both be safely on UK immigration rules to settlement.

Now I have typed it all out, why would you even want to use EU regulations and have all that worry, when your wife can get you both visas with her shortage occupation job? I'm assuming that an EEA national can have a dependant visa?

why would you even want to use EU regulations and have all that worry, when your wife can get you both visas with her shortage occupation job?

Much like you mentioned, I am coming to find out more and more that moving under the Tier 2 visa would definitely be the easiest!

Our reasoning is simply timing. In terms of our present commitments and our current situation, now is the best time to make the move, so might as well take advantage of it while we can, and the fastest way to do so is using my EU treaty rights, even if it is not a long-term solution and even if we lose out on a year towards citizenship. Ideally, it would be nice to just continue down that pathway under EU laws, but there is quite a bit of uncertainty as to what date will be chosen by the UK for the rights of EU citizens (latest I saw in the negotiations is that they are leaving it vague as any date between the trigerring of Article 50 and when the UK actual exits the EU - really hoping it will be the latter!).

For her work, we are now in the process of getting all the paperwork in order to transfer her licence and once that is done she can apply for work, but even at best, that will still take a few months. That being said, the current plan is just to go now and if it soon becomes apparent that we wouldn't qualify to stay under EU rules, we will just have to reapply under the regular UK immigration rules.

The only hiccup I could potentially see is if, say, in 3 years from now, her work is no longer on the shortage occupations list... are there any protections in such a case to remain in the country?

That's a really interesting question whether I would be able to have a family member visa as an EEA-national, but even if that became an issue, I could use my US passport and apply that way.

but there is quite a bit of uncertainty as to what date will be chosen by the UK for the rights of EU citizens (latest I saw in the negotiations is that they are leaving it vague as any date between the trigerring of Article 50 and when the UK actual exits the EU - really hoping it will be the latter!).

And on what terms the EEA citizens will be able to live in the UK and then only if the UK and EU can agree a deal in the next two years. Perhaps too many "if", "buts" and "maybes" when you have a safer option?

If your wife gets a sponsor and they can get the appliction in for a Tier 2 Restricted CoS by the 5th of the month, the board sits to allocate these for that month, on about the 11th. There doesn't seem to be a delay with these visas getting issued after they have their CoS.

There was a nurse on here who has a thread on her visa for a job shortage and she got her visa very soon after she was allocated her CoS.

The only hiccup I could potentially see is if, say, in 3 years from now, her work is no longer on the shortage occupations list... are there any protections in such a case to remain in the country?

So long as she had a UK "visa" (UK immigration rules)  with a job code that is the UK's shortages list and still has a sponsor, that isn't a problem. Those not having to meet the income requirement for ILR (UK immigration rules) are, those doing a PhD job, those on a job shortage  and those who have a job that was on the shortages list in the last 6 (it might me 5) years.

Whereas say if in three years time you cannot stay in the UK on Brexit  and her job isn't on the job shortages at that time, how will you get UK visas? Unless you are doing a job on the shortages list, it is very hard to get a UK work visa.

a new employer will not have to carry out a 28 day Resident Labour Market Test to check nobody else can do that job as your wife is doing a shortage occupation job.

I should have said that nurses do need to have a RLMT. The UK put all nurse on the shortages list as those on the job shortage list are exempt from having to meet the income requirement for ILR.

The maximum stay on a Tier 2 General work visa, is 6 years. ILR granted after 5 years if they meet the requriements.

https://www.gov.uk/tier-2-general/overview

And on what terms the EEA citizens will be able to live in the UK and then only if the UK and EU can agree a deal in the next two years. Perhaps too many "if", "buts" and "maybes" when you have a safer option?

Agreed. That is why we are revising the plan to just make the initial move under EU freedom of movement rules, and then as soon as possible (within 3-6mo) find a sponsor for a Tier 2 Visa under the Shortage Occupation list. In doing some reading on the CoS for the Tier 2, I saw a note about Unrestricted CoS for those switching into a Tier 2, which perhaps may apply to us if she gets a job there initially (under my treaty rights as a family member of an EEA-national), and perhaps that may make it easier to get approval. Granted I haven't done much research into that yet so I may be mistaken on that.

In any case, regarding the Family Permit, have you heard of any issues with being denied on the basis of not having secured a place to live in advance?