Gun Law Views Inlight of Las Vegas Shooting

Here's an interesting article about Australia :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/las-vegas-shooting-australia-gun-laws-control-stephen-paddock-2nd-amendment-nevada-firearm-a7980671.html

From the article :
"A study conducted 10 years after Port Arthur concluded: “Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides."

This article does go on to say that the researchers concluded  that it was impossible to correlate the reduction in gun suicides to the gun ban because of the overall reduction in suicide numbers.  There's a big difference between that and what you are arguing.  Why is it deliberately misleading to argue that suicide is a gun problem?  Seems like common sense to me, and it is just as supported by the facts as your theory, if not more supported.  Yet I wouldn't say you are intentionally misleading even though your first post was pretty inaccurate.   

In that particular example, he was defending himself at the point he confronted the suspect and had to use force to protect himself.

Which he wouldn't have had to do if he didn't go home specifically to confront the burglar.

I was going to jump in again......but for once the wiser part of my brain took over. This gun argument is kind of like the religious arguments.......both sides are convinced they are right and can't understand why the "other" side can't understand their point of view. But both sides insist that the other side changes........

I actually agree with Mr texas that talking about the number of deaths in mass shootings and burglaries is focusing on the wrong areas.  That's not who is getting shot in America.  Suicides, domestic violence and kids killing themselves by accident are far more important. 

I was going to jump in again......but for once the wiser part of my brain took over. This gun argument is kind of like the religious arguments.......both sides are convinced they are right and can't understand why the "other" side can't understand their point of view. But both sides insist that the other side changes........

Not necessarily. I can acknowledge when a person makes a valid point that I can get behind just as I can also acknowledge that certain things are just my personal opinion that others may not agree with (as I stated many times in various replies). I don't think it's necessarily insisting either side changes while remaining that your side is "right", it's more about having a discussion about something that's obviously a massive issue and maybe trying to make some sense of it or see something you hadn't seen/heard before that could influence you to see the other person's perspective.

Buuuuut ultimately I agree that it's like the religion topic. You feel the way you feel and it's very unlikely that you will change your opinion without something massive happening that causes you to do so (which is obviously not just a discussion online). Even when you acknowledge a valid point somebody else has made, you are more likely than not going to hold your previous views regardless.

Here's an interesting article about Australia :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/las-vegas-shooting-australia-gun-laws-control-stephen-paddock-2nd-amendment-nevada-firearm-a7980671.html

From the article :
"A study conducted 10 years after Port Arthur concluded: “Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides."

This article does go on to say that the researchers concluded  that it was impossible to correlate the reduction in gun suicides to the gun ban because of the overall reduction in suicide numbers.  There's a big difference between that and what you are arguing.  Why is it deliberately misleading to argue that suicide is a gun problem?  Seems like common sense to me, and it is just as supported by the facts as your theory, if not more supported.  Yet I wouldn't say you are intentionally misleading even though your first post was pretty inaccurate.

From your article:

The researchers wrote: “There was a more rapid decline in firearm deaths between 1997 and 2013 compared with before 1997, but also a decline in total non-firearm suicide and homicide deaths of a greater magnitude.

“Because of this, it is not possible to determine whether the change in firearm deaths can be attributed to the gun law reforms.”

Which is what you reference.

And here's the numbers:
http://www.mindframe-media.info/for-media/reporting-suicide/facts-and-stats

It's highly misleading to say suicide is a gun problem cause people are still killing themselves at predictable rates regardless of the tools available to them. There is no regulation of gun ownership that can fix that problem. Certainly not anything to do with assault weapons.

If you want to talk about access to quality mental healthcare, I think that could actually make a difference and there'd be much broader bipartisan support.

And my first post was about shotguns. That was I assure you from many years of experience is 100% accurate. My second post I assume you're referring to is also absolutely accurate less the correction from 3 to 5 of 14 total shootings in the last 35 years that resulted in double digit deaths. It's right there in the data, which I linked to. That's using the definition less favorable to my position. You can download it as an excel sheet like I did and see for yourself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Which he wouldn't have had to do if he didn't go home specifically to confront the burglar.

No doubt. As I said, I don't know the details. Typical police response time to an ongoing felony like that is typically around 10mins in most of the country. I don't know where he was coming from that he beat the police there or what made him think confronting the burglar himself would be a good idea. I know people have stolen stuff off my grandparents place up in Kentucky where no one is living now. The cops don't even hardly show up anymore. So yeah, if it was a situation like that, I might very well try to catch them. I just don't know the details of the situation in that story well enough to know why things happened as they did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So yeah, if it was a situation like that, I might very well try to catch them. I just don't know the details of the situation in that story well enough to know why things happened as they did.

Just difference of personality/opinion I guess. For me, in your grandparent's situatoin, I would be having as much security as I could (home surveillance cameras up/security system/etc. - given police are less likely to show up) and would just probably take the loss of property vs showing up to catch the person myself and comfront them with a deadly weapon. Again, as I've said many times, it's a personal thing because I am would be unable to take a life unless under extreme conditions. Other people would see it as their right to defend themselves and I get that. It's just not my way/choice. I'm not saying I wouldn't be pissed off or wanting justice, I would just rather take captured footage and file a report than confront a person myself - but to each their own (everybody is entitled to their opinion).

I actually agree with Mr texas that talking about the number of deaths in mass shootings and burglaries is focusing on the wrong areas.  That's not who is getting shot in America.  Suicides, domestic violence and kids killing themselves by accident are far more important.

Accidents are about 3% of total deaths per year. I'm all for requiring guns be properly secured, with criminal & civil liability when someone gets access to them cause they're not.

Generally that's already the law. The problem is find a prosecutor who will charge a parent with a crime after their kid just got into the guns and accidentally shot someone. It's not the easiest thing to fix. Eventually we'll get smartgun tech that actually works and this number should drop, but right now the tech still sucks. Plus, a good part of that number isn't unauthorized users but just idiots being negligent with guns they may not understand well or practice with regularly.

Domestic violence is a problem everywhere. We already take guns from people once it happens, but there's not a lot that can be done if the first incident is a murder. We need to get better with reporting and processing those situations.

Suicides, like I said, isn't really a gun problem. If someone wants to kill themselves then there's a thousand ways to do that without a gun. It is better access to effective care and especially de stigmatizing going for that care that we need to work on.

If you do those things plus serious enforcement against criminals then honestly you'd be down to something less than 1/6th of current gun deaths. All without any additional regulation of guns at all. I'm not saying there aren't some reasonable limits on guns that should be in place, there are, but a lack of those limits or enforcement of them really isn't the problem we need to deal with. THAT is my point.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just difference of personality/opinion I guess. For me, in your grandparent's situatoin, I would be having as much security as I could (home surveillance cameras up/security system/etc. - given police are less likely to show up) and would just probably take the loss of property vs showing up to catch the person myself and comfront them with a deadly weapon. Again, as I've said many times, it's a personal thing because I am would be unable to take a life unless under extreme conditions. Other people would see it as their right to defend themselves and I get that. It's just not my way/choice. I'm not saying I wouldn't be pissed off or wanting justice, I would just rather take captured footage and file a report than confront a person myself - but to each their own (everybody is entitled to their opinion).

We do have a lot of security. Lights, cameras, and alarms anyway. But no one is there for months on end. The crooks stole the cameras, busted the lights, and the cops didn't respond to the alarm till the next day.

If it was the one time then okay, but they went back over and over. They brought in trailers and stayed for hours loading stuff up. There's a difference between take a small loss and get systematically cleaned out of six figures worth of stuff over a period of months.

If the cops can't or won't stop that then at some point the property owner has to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm surprised that you think we could lower the amount of gun deaths by 5/6 simply by doing the things you outline, but I'll take  it.  An increase in mental health care is unquestionably a good thing and we are both for it.  Everyone is until it's time to pay for it. 

Perhaps the core arguments to gun control are similar to abortion in that sane people on both sides actually agree that it's better if there are less abortions.  It's the extreme nutters that make it difficult for that common ground to be acknowledged.

I'm surprised that you think we could lower the amount of gun deaths by 5/6 simply by doing the things you outline, but I'll take  it.  An increase in mental health care is unquestionably a good thing and we are both for it.  Everyone is until it's time to pay for it. 

Perhaps the core arguments to gun control are similar to abortion in that sane people on both sides actually agree that it's better if there are less abortions.  It's the extreme nutters that make it difficult for that common ground to be acknowledged.

Well, 5/6th plus of the problem would be addressed as much as we reasonably could. It's really hard to predict the outcomes. If it were 2/3rd or even half the problem reduced by those steps, I think we could call that a massive success story. Plus, you'd help a lot of people who would otherwise be suicide by means other than a gun too.

I'm with you though. I really think there's broad room for agreement on things that can actually make a difference. The knee jerk reaction to just banning more and more guns isn't working and cannot work to solve the real issues we face cause there's not actually a causal relationship between the two things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The knee jerk reaction to just banning more and more guns isn't working and cannot work to solve the real issues we face cause there's not actually a causal relationship between the two things.

I think the problem I've had is that when you mention any type of reform discussion, you get a lot of fanatics (on both sides), as Jim said, that make this difficult. But it's a necessary discussion.

But here's my question, is it really any fun to shoot an assault rifle?  I could enjoy it for about 2 minutes before I would be finished.  Maybe if you actually got to shoot up a car or something  but otherwise I can't see the point.

But here's my question, is it really any fun to shoot an assault rifle?  I could enjoy it for about 2 minutes before I would be finished.  Maybe if you actually got to shoot up a car or something  but otherwise I can't see the point.

I took my British now brother in laws out when they were over in aug and we did a good bit of shooting. Couple ARs close to 10k each the way they were kitted out. Couple AKs. Silencers, pistols, all sorts of stuff. They enjoyed it immensely.

My best man and I who supplied most of the firepower have both been to bad places in the world with similar equipment and targets that shoot back. So, I'd say for us it's about some pride in sustaining a perishable skill when we're both now doing different things. When we're not hosting amateurs, you'd likely see us doing drills for firing techniques, speed reloads, etc. There is a regimented sort of structure to it. To move slow seeking a near perfect standard and then get faster while sustaining that precision. It's hard to explain but that translates to a mindset for life in general and certainly reduces a lot of stress.

So yeah, I'd say it's fun & therapeutic at the same time. Not everyone will feel that way, and that's fine too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk