Joint Account with NRA - Fbar Part III or Part IV?

Hello again!

Well, I'm making progress on all of this Fbar stuff.  Now that I've mangaged to acquire all of the necessary data I have a question about my joint account with my Non-Resident Alien spouse. 

Very quickly about our finances...

About me:

I am an American primarily stay at home parent with very small self-employment earnings (like less than £2000 annually sometimes).  For many years I have diligently done my 1040, Form 2555, UK/US 1 Self-Employment Tax Exemption letter, Schedule C and Form 8965.  I have never had a tax liability in the  US while in the UK.  I have a small bank account with very little money in it.  I am however on another joint account with my spouse, but none of the funds in that account belong to me they are entirely my spouses.  My spouse is a non-resident alien high earner.  The only reason I am on the account is to buy groceries, kids shoes, things for daily life etc etc. 

I now know I need to file the Fbar because I have access to an account over the threshold, although the funds are not mine.  I just learned about this requirement last week!

Given the above circumstances (the fact that all of the money in the accounts belongs to my spouse) my question is...

Do I fill out Part III (Information on Financial Account(s) Owned Jointly)
or
Part IV (Information on Financial Account(s) Where Filer has Signature or Other Authority
            but No financial Interest in the Account(s))


Sorry so many questions and thanks very very much.  I am dizzy with all of the forms!

What are the names of the owners of the account according to the bank? Are you able to withdraw funds from the account by your signature only?

If it is a joint account in the eyes of the bank, with both you and your spouse as owners (is any mail from the account addressed to both of you?), then file under Part III. You list the highest amount in the account during the year. It does not matter that you did not contribute funds into the account. If you, theoretically, could withdraw all the money on your signature, then you have control of all the funds (in the eyes of FinCEN).

I think part IV is for organisations where you may have signature authority to pay bills and the like. e.g. you may be the treasurer or secretary of a local garden group where there are paying members.

I think part IV is for organisations where you may have signature authority to pay bills and the like. e.g. you may be the treasurer or secretary of a local garden group where there are paying members.

Also, Part IV is the section which has resulted in some USCs working in UK organisations (company accounting section, solicitors office, etc.) to lose their jobs, or fail to advance, due to the requirement to disclose to the US Treasury details of the UK organisation's accounts simply because they may have signature authority to issue cheques on behalf of the organisation.

Thanks very much everyone.  I am just about to submit my Fbars...

Couple more questions if you don't mind.  This is just to confirm.

On the FinCEN form 114 (Fbar) number 25 do I put 'NRA' for the joint account holder's TIN or NRAspouse? They don't allow spaces.

On the FinCEN form 114 (Fbar) number 25a do I select 'Foreign' for the joint account holder's TIN type?

Also, when it asks for the type of account, it only has three choices...Bank, Securities, Other.

Is it worth it to select 'Other' and write 'Bank - Joint Offset Mortgage Savings Account'?

Or does it not really matter?  My thinking here is that I would like to make it clear that there is no interest on the savings account. 

Also, should I put my NRA spouse's name or just NRA again?

This is a hypothetical:

Would I be in breech of my Non-resident alien spouse's right to privacy if I filed the joint account on the Fbar using their name even if they explicitly told me not to and refused to sign form 114a?

Thanks again!!

Have you looked at this page:

https://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/FFBARHelp.html

There's a link with line-by-line instructions.

Thanks Vadio,

Yes, I did go through the line by line instructions but they make no reference to Non-resident aliens and the type of account options they give are fairly non-specific. 

On the FinCEN form 114 (Fbar) number 25 do I put 'NRA' for the joint account holder's TIN or NRAspouse? They don't allow spaces.

On the FinCEN form 114 (Fbar) number 25a do I select 'Foreign' for the joint account holder's TIN type?

IMO, leave items 25 and 25a blank if your spouse does not have a US SSN, TIN, or EIN. Some may disagree with this answer.

If you are filing with a spouse that does have any of the above, include those (primarily when filing with a USC spouse, but there are other instances). (The filer does have to include foreign identification if they have no SSN, etc.)

For last name (line 26), put, for example, "Smith(spouse)"

Also, when it asks for the type of account, it only has three choices...Bank, Securities, Other.

Is it worth it to select 'Other' and write 'Bank - Joint Offset Mortgage Savings Account'?

Or does it not really matter?  My thinking here is that I would like to make it clear that there is no interest on the savings account.

IMO, simply use "Bank".

If FinCEN really want any information on the account, they can find out all details of the account and all details of all owners. They have the institution and the account number. Nothing is secret any longer.

Some may disagree. 

Also, should I put my NRA spouse's name or just NRA again?

IMO, it's up to you, but if FinCEN want the name, they'll find out. Some put NRA to keep the spouse happy. Some may disagree.

If any of the above is not satisfactory for FinCEN, they will contact you for the additional information.

This is a hypothetical:

Would I be in breech of my Non-resident alien spouse's right to privacy if I filed the joint account on the Fbar using their name even if they explicitly told me not to and refused to sign form 114a?

Don't even go there. The EU Parliament is suggesting the IRS/Treasury requirements for information is a breach of the right to data privacy [Article 8] and the right to non-discrimination [Article 14] of the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR).

From a UK Labour Party MEP who sits on the Petitions Committee in the European Parliament :
https://northeastlabour.eu/issue-%E2%80%98accidental-americans%E2%80%99-and-what-eu-doing-help

There is documented evidence that the informational filing requirements of FBAR/8938/etc. have led to divorces. There is also documented evidence the situation between a USC and an NRA spouse has led to renunciation of USC by the USC.

IMO, Form 114a is primarily for either a 3rd party preparer or a USC spouse. If your spouse would like to sign the form, fine, but it always stays in your files. It is not sent to FinCEN. Some may disagree.

Thanks very very much Guru.  I really appreciate your opinions and the info about Article 8.

I think I am ready to file...

done it.

Thanks for everyone's help and advice...

talking about Guru's comments:

Don't even go there. The EU Parliament is suggesting the IRS/Treasury requirements for information is a breach of the right to data privacy [Article 8] and the right to non-discrimination [Article 14] of the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR).

It is probably unconstitutional as well:

Although the Constitution does not explicitly include the right to privacy, the Supreme Court has found that the Constitution implicitly grants a right to privacy against governmental intrusion from the First Amendment, Third Amendment, Fourth Amendment, and the Fifth Amendment.[17]