Settlement Refusal

To address some of your letter content further:

I have answered “no” to question 37 at page 7 of the form, “Have you ever travelled outside your country of residence, excluding the UK, in the last 10 years?” We answer that here in far greater detail than was physically possible within the form, and to that end, please find attached to this letter a detailed spreadsheet containing my full travel history in response to your enquiry. It is important to explain that I have an extensive history of voluntarily assisting in humanitarian projects and operations as well as a well documented curiosity and desire to see the world. The frequence sequence of entries between Turkey and Greece is simply explained by my involvement in assisting refugees escaping war and persecution in the Middle East. In breaks from my NGO work in Greece, I transited frequently to Turkey for those breaks, staying with friends who have accomodation there. It is important to note that I had all the proper visa permissions at all times to undertake NGO work in Greece and also legitimately entered and exited Turkey at all times.

They don't care about your humanitarian efforts or your desire to see the world. All they need is a list of dates and countries, so they can check that you don't have any adverse immigration history in those countries. It's about ticking boxes, not about you as a person.

So, you just list the dates of your trips, or a period of dates. No need for a detailed spreadsheet.

So, if you were travelling a lot between Greece and Turkey, you can just put something like:

- Moved to Greece for NGO work on A date,
- X number of trips between Greece and Turkey between C and D dates, due to visiting friends in Turkey while I was living in Greece
- Returned to US from Greece on B date
- trip to UK from E to F date

I have declared that two passports I have in my posession: ie my current passport (#) and my spent passport (#). Please note that I also had a passport between 2000-2010, however this was retained by the US Consulate in Dublin where I had renewed it. The VAF4A does not appear to anticipate situations where the details, such as passport number and dates of issue and expiry are simply not available: thus it is the passport could not be declared here.

Your passport should NOT have been detained in Dublin, it should have been returned to you... did they give a reason why they kept it? Because it's not normal for them to keep it.

So, for your passport details on the application form, you just put something like:

- current passport details
- previous passport details
- third passport held from 2000-2010, but details are unknown as it was kept by the US Embassy in Dublin when I renewed it.

To address some of your letter content further:

They don't care about your humanitarian efforts or your desire to see the world. All they need is a list of dates and countries, so they can check that you don't have any adverse immigration history in those countries. It's about ticking boxes, not about you as a person.

So, you just list the dates of your trips, or a period of dates. No need for a detailed spreadsheet.

So, if you were travelling a lot between Greece and Turkey, you can just put something like:

- Moved to Greece for NGO work on A date,
- X number of trips between Greece and Turkey between C and D dates, due to visiting friends in Turkey while I was living in Greece
- Returned to US from Greece on B date
- trip to UK from E to F date

Your passport should NOT have been detained in Dublin, it should have been returned to you... did they give a reason why they kept it? Because it's not normal for them to keep it.

So, for your passport details on the application form, you just put something like:

- current passport details
- previous passport details
- third passport held from 2000-2010, but details are unknown as it was kept by the US Embassy in Dublin when I renewed it.

Wow, our solicitor was apparently even more inept than I thought 

In regards to the travel, we are talking easily 50 entries, and probably 20+ between Greece and Turkey. Should I try to enter them all into the app or enter some and still provide the spreadsheet?

I am also including scans of each old passport page. I had to renew it 3 years early bc i didn't have a blank page left for my UK visa.

I have no idea why they kept my old passport, I renewed it by post when I was living in Ireland in a 1 year visa. They just didn't return it with my new passport, which was a real bummer!

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In regards to the travel, we are talking easily 50 entries, and probably 20+ between Greece and Turkey. Should I try to enter them all into the app or enter some and still provide the spreadsheet?

What does the online application form actually say? I thought of the online form only asked for the last 5 trips abroad? (or does it ask for all trips, but then only give 5 spaces?)

Note that there is 1 online application form, plus 2 forms called VAF4a, and they are not the same as each other.

Online application = online application... it has no other names

VAF4a = paper version of the online application form, only accepted in North Korea. Not currently available to download on the UKVI website.

VAF4A Appendix 2 Financial Requirements form = the spousal visa Appendix to the online application

So, you submit:
- online application
-  VAF4 Appendix 2

So, I'm a little confused about which page you are looking at when you say the travel history on page 7 of VAF4a, because:
-  page 7 of VAF4a Appendix 2 is about the financial requirement,
and
- page 7 of my old, saved version of VAF4a is about Dependant Children.
and
- the online form is not VAF4a

I am also including scans of each old passport page. I had to renew it 3 years early bc i didn't have a blank page left for my UK visa.

Why are you including scans? You have to send the whole, actual passport (if you have it)... it's one of the requirements.

Or if the scans are of the passport you didn't get back, then you surely have the details to put in the application form.

I have no idea why they kept my old passport, I renewed it by post when I was living in Ireland in a 1 year visa. They just didn't return it with my new passport, which was a real bummer!

Yeah, I guess you probably should have requested it back, because they are supposed to return it. I mean, what if you'd had a valid visa for another country in there, that you still needed to use? (My valid US visa is in my old, expired passport so I have to carry both passports with me when I go to the US).

In regards to the missing passport,  they aren't returned together with the new passport. They are returned separately to help prevent identity theft so it was more than likely lost in the mail and not retained.

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What does the online application form actually say? I thought of the online form only asked for the last 5 trips abroad? (or does it ask for all trips, but then only give 5 spaces?)

It does only ask for the last 5 visits and have 5 spaces to list them.

Everything ksand said!

I don’t know what your lawyer was smoking when he studied for his qualifications, but I’m glad you are rid of him now.   

Having you tick the boxes incorrectly is definitely a new one!   

A part of me wonders if he does this to force a refusal to get more money.  Either that or he’s REALLY bad!

What does the online application form actually say? I thought of the online form only asked for the last 5 trips abroad? (or does it ask for all trips, but then only give 5 spaces?)

Note that there is 1 online application form, plus 2 forms called VAF4a, and they are not the same as each other.

Online application = online application... it has no other names

VAF4a = paper version of the online application form, only accepted in North Korea. Not currently available to download on the UKVI website.

VAF4A Appendix 2 Financial Requirements form = the spousal visa Appendix to the online application

So, you submit:
- online application
-  VAF4 Appendix 2

So, I'm a little confused about which page you are looking at when you say the travel history on page 7 of VAF4a, because:
-  page 7 of VAF4a Appendix 2 is about the financial requirement,
and
- page 7 of my old, saved version of VAF4a is about Dependant Children.
and
- the online form is not VAF4a

Why are you including scans? You have to send the whole, actual passport (if you have it)... it's one of the requirements.

Or if the scans are of the passport you didn't get back, then you surely have the details to put in the application form.

Yeah, I guess you probably should have requested it back, because they are supposed to return it. I mean, what if you'd had a valid visa for another country in there, that you still needed to use? (My valid US visa is in my old, expired passport so I have to carry both passports with me when I go to the US).

The application form does ask for your past 5 entries to the UK but there is another question that asks if you have traveled outside your country or residence in the past 10 years. This is the part that will be 50+ entries. Hence the question about the spreadsheet - do I input what I can until I run out of room (if I run out of room) and also send the spreadsheet? I have NO idea what he means by page 7!

I sent scans the first time rather than my old passport bc that's what he said to do. I did send my new one but not my old one...I will send both this time. Stupid lawyer!

The passport I never got back was my very first one and I didn't know I was supposed to get it back - I was in my 20s and had just started traveling! Ah well, now I know!

Everything ksand said!

I don’t know what your lawyer was smoking when he studied for his qualifications, but I’m glad you are rid of him now.   

Having you tick the boxes incorrectly is definitely a new one!   

A part of me wonders if he does this to force a refusal to get more money.  Either that or he’s REALLY bad!

Neither one of those options would surprise me in the least! Shockingly, he is ranked the top lawyer in our county and has nothing but positive reviews. Obviously fake or very out of date! And on top of that he had an arrogant public school boy attitude 

Neither one of those options would surprise me in the least! Shockingly, he is ranked the top lawyer in our county and has nothing but positive reviews. Obviously fake or very out of date! And on top of that he had an arrogant public school boy attitude 

I hope you leave a review - specifically calling out that you were refused because he FAILED to include a required letter that YOU HAD PROVIDED him with!

Or post his name and we’ll all add reviews.   

I hope you leave a review - specifically calling out that you were refused because he FAILED to include a required letter that YOU HAD PROVIDED him with!

Or post his name and we’ll all add reviews.   

We are DEFINITELY going to follow up and see what our options are! It's shocking how inept he was, and knowing that he will do this to other people as well is absolutely unacceptable to us. We just want to get through the re submission first, bc honestly I don't have any more emotional energy to give him at the moment, it all needs to go in to doing this properly and getting home to my husband and family! After that, he won't know what hit him!

The application form does ask for your past 5 entries to the UK but there is another question that asks if you have traveled outside your country or residence in the past 10 years. This is the part that will be 50+ entries. Hence the question about the spreadsheet - do I input what I can until I run out of room (if I run out of room) and also send the spreadsheet? I have NO idea what he means by page 7!

Okay, I would list as many as you can in the form (I think it'll only let you put 5 trips in?) and then continue on a separate sheet.

I personally wouldn't include a spreadsheet if you don't have to, but I guess it depends how complicated it looks.

There have been people on the forum who have taken many, many trips to Canada while living in the US, and I think they may have just put something like '20 weekend trips to Canada between 2010 and 2013' (or whatever it was they did).

I sent scans the first time rather than my old passport bc that's what he said to do. I did send my new one but not my old one...I will send both this time. Stupid lawyer!

The guidance for spousal visas on the UKVI website states:

You’ll need to:
.
.
- send your current passport or other valid travel ID
- send your previous passports

and the supporting documents guidance states you need to include:

Previous passports
These are to show your previous travel history

Okay, I would list as many as you can in the form (I think it'll only let you put 5 trips in?) and then continue on a separate sheet.

I personally wouldn't include a spreadsheet if you don't have to, but I guess it depends how complicated it looks.

There have been people on the forum who have taken many, many trips to Canada while living in the US, and I think they may have just put something like '20 weekend trips to Canada between 2010 and 2013' (or whatever it was they did).

The guidance for spousal visas on the UKVI website states:

and the supporting documents guidance states you need to include:

Sorry, what do you mean by "on another page"?

I saw The guidance notes re sending the passports and yeah, clear as day, yet our solicitor said not to send it, just copies.

The more I think about it the more I think he just wanted more ££ for submitting again after our refusal!!!!

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We are DEFINITELY going to follow up and see what our options are! It's shocking how inept he was, and knowing that he will do this to other people as well is absolutely unacceptable to us. We just want to get through the re submission first, bc honestly I don't have any more emotional energy to give him at the moment, it all needs to go in to doing this properly and getting home to my husband and family! After that, he won't know what hit him!

I just don't know what to say. I didn't notice at first that the solicitor had written most of the letter and just... wow. I have no words.

I mean, we've seen our fair share of bad immigration lawyer experiences here on the forum, but usually it's a case of the lawyer going overboard with the documents, or they are just not familiar with the application process in the US, as they are used to dealing with applications made in other countries.

However, I have never heard of a UK immigration lawyer telling someone to LIE on their application form (it's one thing to explain travel history or NHS use in a letter, but you still have to tick yes on the application form!), nor have I heard of a lawyer not including a vital document that had been provided to them (normally they are the ones insisting on extra documents that aren't needed).

And people wonder why we advise against using a lawyer (especially when they have a straightforward application and just want to use a lawyer for peace of mind)!

Was your solicitor OISC-registered?

Looks like you can make a complaint to OISC about the service you received (either from an OISC-registered adviser or an unregulated adviser): https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration-adviser/complain-about-an-adviser

Sorry, what do you mean by "on another page"?

I mean, type or handwrite the rest of your trips on a separate sheet of paper and include it with the application form.

Or if there's an Additional Information section as part of the online form, you could type the trips in there.

I just don't know what to say. I didn't notice at first that the solicitor had written most of the letter and just... wow. I have no words.

I mean, we've seen our fair share of bad immigration lawyer experiences here on the forum, but usually it's a case of the lawyer going overboard with the documents, or they are just not familiar with the application process in the US, as they are used to dealing with applications made in other countries.

However, I have never heard of a UK immigration lawyer telling someone to LIE on their application form (it's one thing to explain travel history or NHS use in a letter, but you still have to tick yes on the application form!), nor have I heard of a lawyer not including a vital document that had been provided to them (normally they are the ones insisting on extra documents that aren't needed).

And people wonder why we advise against using a lawyer (especially when they have a straightforward application and just want to use a lawyer for peace of mind)!

Was your solicitor OISC-registered?

Looks like you can make a complaint to OISC about the service you received (either from an OISC-registered adviser or an unregulated adviser): https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration-adviser/complain-about-an-adviser

Oh yeah, that letter was all him, except the part I put in about our refusal. I just copied and pasted! Not only was he OISC certified, he advertises himself as an expert on US to UK immigration 

Thanks for the link, we will definitely follow up with that!