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Topic: Settlement Refusal  (Read 12103 times)

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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2018, 10:20:36 AM »
The rules are the rules unfortunately.

And because there are people who happily use deception to enter or remain in the UK, the rules and checks have had to be tightened.


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2018, 10:22:16 AM »
Two months not being an exact match wouldn't throw anything into doubt if the amounts were otherwise clear of the minimum.  And, if it did, I'd confirm with HRMC.  At the very least, I'd reach out to the applicant to clarify the discrepency.  As you indicate, a statement from the employer could have dealt with this very quickly.

But, just rejecting it out of hand?

It just seems a bit mean-spirited to me.  :(

Tim

UKVI do check with HMRC.  They do many checks with various agencies.  But HMRC only know the same information that's on the payslips.  They won't know about the different amounts in the actual bank deposits, and they certainly wouldn't know why the amounts were different.

UKVI very rarely may contact the applicant for the occasional missing document if everything else looks acceptable.  But, generally speaking, if it's not already in the application sitting in front of them, the application will be decided without it.  In this case, though, it wasn't merely a missing document.  It was a discrepancy in the evidence, with no explanation for it.  That's a huge red flag that something's not right about the evidence.  The ECO's job is, from what I have heard, a very tedious and pressured one.  S/he doesn't have time to investigate the whyfors.  They'll just reject and move on to the next application.
9/1/2013 - "fiancée" (marriage) visa issued
4/6/2013 - married (certificate issued same-day)
5/6/2013 - FLR(M)#1 in person -- approved!
8/1/2016 - FLR(M)#2 by post -- approved!
8/5/2018 - ILR in person -- approved!
22/11/2018 - Citizenship (online, with NDRS+JCAP) -- approved!
14/12/2018 - I became a British citizen.  :)


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2018, 10:26:32 AM »
Thanks for understanding my point of view.   :)

I am obviously approaching this from quite an emotional position as I have an application pending myself with a long time left to wait.  I know how devastated I would be (or may end up being) if my application was rejected for a reason such as this - which I'd personally put in the low-level, trivial bucket - without anyone even reaching out for clarification.

Tim

Welcome to the forum, Tim :).

As we haven't seen the exact wording of SoonInDevon's refusal letter yet, it's difficult to know what the exact reason for refusal was ... sometimes it reads as though the refusal was for one reason, when actually, you have to read between the lines to find out the real reason.

For example:
A couple of years ago, someone posted that they had been refused because Sheffield didn't believe their UK sponsor was actually a British citizen... but upon reading the refusal letter, it turned out that wasn't the case at all  - the visa had been refused for something completely different (I can't remember the exact reason now, but I think it was due to missing relationship/communication evidence), it was just that the way the letter was worded implied it was the UK sponsor's citizenship that was in question.
Essentially, if you don't know what you're looking for in the refusal letter, you might not realise the actual reason at all, and then you might reapply or appeal based on an incorrect assumption.

In this case, it could be that the payslip discrepancies were the reason for refusal, or it might be that something else more important was incorrect and the payslips discrepancies were simply mentioned to give extra weight to the refusal, but weren't actually the main reason - in which case, it may be that if the other document had been correct, the payslip discrepancies would have been overlooked and the visa granted.


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2018, 10:29:29 AM »
Thanks for understanding my point of view.   :)


You will not find a group that hates UKVI more than us.  Or a group that thinks the rules make no sense most of the time.   ;D

But what we do do, is tell people the rules and how to follow them to the letter - so they get their approvals.  Doesn't mean we agree with them.  But we know what's needed.   ;)



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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2018, 10:33:26 AM »
The rules are the rules unfortunately. In some cases the ECO has the option to exercise discretion but they are under no obligation to do so. The onus is on the applicant to prove that they meet the exact criteria set. It's not just about making the right amount of money (and meeting the other requirements), it's about proving that you do within a very strict set of guidelines.

Welcome!  :)

Thanks for the welcome, larrabee.  :)

To me, anyone who's applying for a spouse visa and is paying all that money to do so, would fall into the category of someone who is 'trying to do the right thing'.  And, as such, it's somewhat disappointing to see how little (if any) leeway is granted. 

This wouldn't matter so much if the matter at hand was trying to get a refund for a faulty toaster, but these are families who just want to be together.

As such, I just don't really understand the, well, harshness of decisions like these.

I don't think I'm going to be very well-equipped for this process at all, am I?  ;D

But SoonInDevon has my total sympathy and support.

Tim

 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 10:35:11 AM by TimCypher »


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2018, 10:53:12 AM »
Thanks for the welcome, larrabee.  :)

To me, anyone who's applying for a spouse visa and is paying all that money to do so, would fall into the category of someone who is 'trying to do the right thing'.  And, as such, it's somewhat disappointing to see how little (if any) leeway is granted. 

This wouldn't matter so much if the matter at hand was trying to get a refund for a faulty toaster, but these are families who just want to be together.

As such, I just don't really understand the, well, harshness of decisions like these.

I don't think I'm going to be very well-equipped for this process at all, am I?  ;D

But SoonInDevon has my total sympathy and support.

Tim

 

Everyone reacts differently when they are exposed to the process.

When I first did my research and became aware of how strictly the rules were applied, rather than expecting or hoping for exceptions to be made, I set about learning the requirements, and following them to the letter. 
By doing that, you are giving yourself the best chance of a successful outcome. Expecting the system to be anything other than the way it is, is a loosing battle.  :)


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2018, 10:57:19 AM »
You will not find a group that hates UKVI more than us.  Or a group that thinks the rules make no sense most of the time.   ;D

But what we do do, is tell people the rules and how to follow them to the letter - so they get their approvals.  Doesn't mean we agree with them.  But we know what's needed.   ;)

Yes, I've read some past posts on here and you folks offer excellent and well-informed advice.

Wish I'd found this forum before I applied.  I used a solicitor to put my partner's application together.  From what I've seen, all the documentation you cite as being mandatory or recommended marries up 100% to what the solicitor asked me to provide him with, which is encouraging.

But I still have this lingering worry that an 'i' wasn't dotted, or a 't' wasn't crossed somewhere, or that UKVI won't make a mistake somewhere along the line.

I shall know one way or the other in another 10 weeks or so...

Tim


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2018, 10:58:22 AM »
Everyone reacts differently when they are exposed to the process.

When I first did my research and became aware of how strictly the rules were applied, rather than expecting or hoping for exceptions to be made, I set about learning the requirements, and following them to the letter. 
By doing that, you are giving yourself the best chance of a successful outcome. Expecting the system to be anything other than the way it is, is a loosing battle.  :)

Yes, you are absolutely right.  :)

Regards,

Tim


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2018, 11:31:46 AM »
To me, anyone who's applying for a spouse visa and is paying all that money to do so, would fall into the category of someone who is 'trying to do the right thing'. 

Times have had to change over the last decade, to stop those all who dont, or didn't, "do the right thing".  Under the old laws, the dishonest people often had an advantage in the UK over those who were honest and followed the laws!

To stop the abuse, so far there has been: two new immigration bills that were eventually made law in 2014 and 2016; some court rulings; constant changes to the Immigration Act 1971 when abuse if found; changes to the EEA Regulations; changes to the Nationality requirements; easier ways to remove citizenship if abuse has been used; some visas shut down and others changed; UKVI now checking their previous applications.


False documents and false declarations in applications to try to get lawful staus to the UK/remain in the UK, happens because trying to use deception is better than trying to survive in the UK with no legal status now that these new laws are in.

UKVI don't know who these dishonest applicants are and now have guidelines to follow to stop abuse. Unfortunatley, when there are dishonest people that bring in changes, it's harder for the decent people when they make a mistake.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 12:06:37 PM by Sirius »


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2018, 12:43:24 PM »
Post the refusal reasons verbatim so the experts here can make sure that is the only reason why you were refused. Redact any personal information.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Here is my refusal letter. Also, the email from our solicitor saying our financial requirements have changed since our application was submitted. My husband works for the family  business and his father is the company director. Am I to understand we now have to submit 1-2 years of payslips?? This is so discouraging, especially since we specifically pointed out those payroll discrepancies before we submitted!!

"As I pointed out to you last night  the rules clearly state that you need to submit something such as a contract of employment, handbook, job offer, etc. Amongst that, the rules set out “or” a letter from the employer. This point of refusal is simply wrong therefore.
 
Upon what you told me last night, the amount of difference the caseworker mentioned between pay slips and bank statements amounted to a penny in September 2017 and November 2017. That is taking the rules to the very extreme and whilst technically “correct”, is wholly irrational because that, if so major an obstacle, would invite any decision maker to make further enquiries. At no point does the caseworker say that your income fell short of the required amount unless that is on another page I have not seen.
 
Turning to your request that I prepare a further application to be submitted by Friday evening, there is another issue I was looking for in the caseworkers letter to check and which  is not there.
 
This application was entirely based on your being classified as an employee, pure and simple. To that extent, I am of the view the application was correctly handled in the sense that you are an employee and therefore evidentially we have submitted the correct supporting papers for a Category A employee. The refusal in fact supports that in the absence of any comment to the contrary.
 
But in the meantime since you application was made there has been a rather odd development in the Rules that is increasingly coming to light in practice: you need to consider this carefully before entering into another Category A application which would now considered by the Home Office as incorrect. This moves you out of Category A, and into Category G or H in the Appendix2 form. I refer you to point 9.7 (page 63, and supra):
 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/636618/Appendix_FM_1_7_Financial_Requirement_Final.pdf
 
This means that any application now must go into the operation of the specified limited company owned by your father instead of via the pure employee (Category A) route we were able to use previously.
 
The rules have been stretched recently therefore to include even where you as an employee are covered by this given your relationship to the director of the company (ie your father).
 


Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk



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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2018, 12:46:51 PM »
Okay, so the refusal was ultimately for not including the mandatory employment letter.  That, coupled with the discrepancies in the pay (which would have been explained on the employment letter).

Ignore the lawyer.  You are a category A applicant.  Cut your ties with them and use us.  We'll get you your visa.


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2018, 12:53:08 PM »
Okay, so the refusal was ultimately for not including the mandatory employment letter.  That, coupled with the discrepancies in the pay (which would have been explained on the employment letter).

Ignore the lawyer.  You are a category A applicant.  Cut your ties with them and use us.  We'll get you your visa.
And of course we have him an employment letter and contract ans handbook with our application pack!

My husband doesn't have shares in the company- his father wanted to make him a partner, but our lawyer advised against it as this would make the application process much more complicated. But now he's saying that we need to go the more complicated route! It's very confusing and frustrating.

We also said we would provide a letter from our accountant addressing the discrepancies but lawyer said it's not necessary when we reapply. It would seem sensible to to do that??

I will talk with my husband today and see what we decide. Honestly, this guy just talks in circles and gives us wrong info all the time, I think maybe we should cut our losses and rely on this forum for help!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk



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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2018, 01:00:05 PM »
Here is my refusal letter. Also, the email from our solicitor saying our financial requirements have changed since our application was submitted. My husband works for the family  business and his father is the company director. Am I to understand we now have to submit 1-2 years of payslips?? This is so discouraging, especially since we specifically pointed out those payroll discrepancies before we submitted!!

"As I pointed out to you last night  the rules clearly state that you need to submit something such as a contract of employment, handbook, job offer, etc. Amongst that, the rules set out “or” a letter from the employer. This point of refusal is simply wrong therefore.
 
Upon what you told me last night, the amount of difference the caseworker mentioned between pay slips and bank statements amounted to a penny in September 2017 and November 2017. That is taking the rules to the very extreme and whilst technically “correct”, is wholly irrational because that, if so major an obstacle, would invite any decision maker to make further enquiries. At no point does the caseworker say that your income fell short of the required amount unless that is on another page I have not seen.
 
Turning to your request that I prepare a further application to be submitted by Friday evening, there is another issue I was looking for in the caseworkers letter to check and which  is not there.
 
This application was entirely based on your being classified as an employee, pure and simple. To that extent, I am of the view the application was correctly handled in the sense that you are an employee and therefore evidentially we have submitted the correct supporting papers for a Category A employee. The refusal in fact supports that in the absence of any comment to the contrary.
 
But in the meantime since you application was made there has been a rather odd development in the Rules that is increasingly coming to light in practice: you need to consider this carefully before entering into another Category A application which would now considered by the Home Office as incorrect. This moves you out of Category A, and into Category G or H in the Appendix2 form. I refer you to point 9.7 (page 63, and supra):
 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/636618/Appendix_FM_1_7_Financial_Requirement_Final.pdf
 
This means that any application now must go into the operation of the specified limited company owned by your father instead of via the pure employee (Category A) route we were able to use previously.
 
The rules have been stretched recently therefore to include even where you as an employee are covered by this given your relationship to the director of the company (ie your father).
 


Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

The advice you got from your solicitor doesn't seem right to me.

My solicitor said that the letter from the employer printed on company stationery was an absolute must, and that a employee contract was optional, but recommended to provide if you can.

Tim


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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2018, 01:04:49 PM »
And of course we have him an employment letter and contract ans handbook with our application pack!

My husband doesn't have shares in the company- his father wanted to make him a partner, but our lawyer advised against it as this would make the application process much more complicated. But now he's saying that we need to go the more complicated route! It's very confusing and frustrating.

We also said we would provide a letter from our accountant addressing the discrepancies but lawyer said it's not necessary when we reapply. It would seem sensible to to do that??

I will talk with my husband today and see what we decide. Honestly, this guy just talks in circles and gives us wrong info all the time, I think maybe we should cut our losses and rely on this forum for help!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

I'm so so sorry.  Very "school boy errors" that caused the refusal.

Ask yourself these questions:

Is your husband paid through PAYE?  Does he have a contract of employment?  Is he salaried?  Does he receive a P60?  If these are yes, he is DEFINITELY not self-employed.

Big hugs!  I hope you have someone you can lean on in person right now.   :)



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Re: Settlement Refusal
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2018, 01:06:15 PM »


My solicitor said that the letter from the employer printed on company stationery was an absolute must

Personally, I think it's the single most important item in an application.  They are ALL important and needed - but this one is the one thing to not leave out!


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