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Topic: Davis Resigns  (Read 3729 times)

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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2018, 12:15:20 PM »
While I agree with your argument that Trump's specific personality is not the most important factor in international relations and negotiations, you can't get away with saying what he says doesn't matter. 

This is key.

Republicans/rightists are faced with this situation where they have chosen to back a person who is fundamentally unqualified to hold the office. Perhaps their answer should be, when faced with this, because they will chose to back him again, and are doing so, that, "He is an idiot, but he is our idiot". I guess they know that this sort of "f8ck you, I got mine" doesn't play well anymore and gets them yelled at at parties.

So we see them saying, "Well Hillary was just as bad" or now, as seen above, "Oh it doesn't matter he is just a figurehead". It does matter.

I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2018, 01:55:37 AM »
I think the correct argument is that Republicans don't care if others have health care as long as they do and it results in more money in their own pockets.  That's a pretty sad indictment. 

While I agree with your argument that Trump's specific personality is not the most important factor in international relations and negotiations, you can't get away with saying what he says doesn't matter.  As you know, in many areas the president is essentially powerless, his main power IS what he says.  The president has to lead by talking.  If he can't do that (and Trump has shown no capacity for such leadership), then we have nailed down the reason why Trump is incapable of doing the job.
Nope. Obama could try to influence people and it might make you feel goof or bad but your feelings just do not matter. 99% of what a president says doesn’t matter. No matter who that president is. There is a final yes or no to the options presented them, which can include which options to explore, and that matters, but what they say outside of that is close to meaningless. I’ve been inside that circle and obsessing about personalities is honestly a giant waste of time. I think this guy on a personal level is a terrible human being, but I thought that about the last two democrats to hold the office as well. Whereas, I know W to be an excellent person on a personal level but didn’t always agree with his decisions. Though, I thought strategically he was led to some good decisions.

Aa far as healthcare. You have to be more realistic. Half the country vote republican. They’re not all loaded fat cats holding down the little guy so they can get ahead. Most of them are middle class like everyone else, and a great number are the poor people you think are being held down.

Republicans are not emotionally dead to the plight of people who can’t afford healthcare, or any other need. For the most part they are deeply caring people who want opportunity for everyone regardless of wealth or race or anything else. They’d love for everyone to have access to quality healthcare. But that is simply not possible.

You might love the NHS, but it takes control of medical decisions out of the hands of the patient at levels Americans wouldn’t accept cause the payment is from govt to doctor and patient at a certain point is just along for the ride. It does at a certain point limit what care it will provide. It does have essentially unlimited care which drives costs to a point that leaves it massive short of funding. And it does drive down compensation so the best and brightest aren’t drawn to the profession and there isn’t sufficient reward for R&D/etc. They fill the gap by draining immigrant professionals away from places they’re needed more and by negotiating down drug prices that cause the decrease here to be passed on as an increase in America.

The American system is massively regulated by good intentioned policies that drive costs through the roof and prevent affordable care from existing. We can’t have Medicare or Medicaid for all. The health outcomes on Medicaid are worse than having no insurance, and most Medicaid recipients still seek routine care in an ER cause not many doctor accept it & those that do give so little time/effort to those low return patients.

Republicans would love for everyone to have access to healthcare. Not merely coverage they cannot make effective use of. They don’t think people should have to pay for coverage that can’t get them effective care and that still doesn’t cover catastrophic situations. They don’t think the finite availability of care should be redistributed as if taxing the rich and giving to the poor - they think it should be distributed on the basis of need and ultimately if you want to exceed “your fair share” then on your ability to pay your own way. Overall they just believe in self reliance and govt screws up everything it touches. Literally no control is better than govt control, and the free market will always find the most efficient solution.

Republicans don’t want govt to pick up the tab for able bodied working age people who could get a job with benefits but choose for whatever reason not to. They want a pro business environment that’ll create enough living wage jobs with benefits so govt assistance isn’t necessary. They want tough love. Deeply caring tough love rather than enabling the expansion of societal problems.

It isn’t a perfect solution, but the results are better than well meaning interference gone awry. It’s profoundly wrong and ignorant to try to paint them as uncaring selfish caricatures trying to get ahead at the cost of the less fortunate. That’s not only untrue, but near the polar opposite of reality.

It’s fine for reasonable people to disagree about how to solve these problems - and no country has it right - but, it is really not fine to ignorantly demonize the other side cause they disagree with what you think is the better solution. I do not do that to liberals, though I may disagree with their policy choices and think them naive and unworkable. I try to still treat them with respect and understand where they’re coming from.


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2018, 03:12:36 AM »
This is key.

Republicans/rightists are faced with this situation where they have chosen to back a person who is fundamentally unqualified to hold the office.

Independents (like myself), people who voted Democrat their entire life, and people who had never voted at all are who elected Donald Trump to the presidency. So if you're going to paintbrush the Trump voter as "Republicans/rightists", you're illustrating that you have no idea why he's president now.

You further illustrate your ignorance when you say he's "fundamentally unqualified" to be president. Based on what, exactly? The fact that he wasn't in DC for 40 years? THAT'S WHY HE WON! He was the first legitimate outsider to ever have a viable chance, and he ran with a message that reverberated through homes across the country. He held campaign rally after campaign rally and gave more speeches than any presidential candidate ever has. He showed up to a rally in Michigan, at about 2am on election day in the freezing cold, and there were THOUSANDS of people who had been waiting all day to hear him layout his vision for the nation and the free world. He won 30 states against the Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, globalist elite, media machine. He shocked the world, but you know who wasn't shocked? Americans like me who stood by his side from day 1 because we believe in his message - that America is the greatest nation to ever exist, and that there is an incredible amount of untapped potential due to awful globalist policies dating back 30 years that needed to change; that the greatest military force ever known needed to be unleashed on the animals known as ISIS; and that America needs to protect her borders from illegals pouring in and ruining her economy. He outworked Hillary; he outsmarted the media; and he told the globalists to shove their red tape and bureaucracies straight up their ass.

So who the f*u*c*k are you to tell people that they made the wrong decision or label them as "ists"? You think you know more than those people about what's best for their future? I don't think so. And it's attitudes like yours that will ensure another 4 years of President Trump come November 2020. And thank God for that, because we aren't sick of winning yet.

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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2018, 03:21:18 AM »
Jeremy, do you mind me asking you, where are you living at the moment? I know that you applied for a spouse visa but I don't know the outcome.
The reason I ask is that I have never heard that sort of thing from anyone who has actually had experience of the NHS and of living in the UK.
If you are not here, that could be why you don't have a clear picture of the way things are in the UK?
I'm in England. I guess those videos on the news over the Winter of ambulances lined up with patients inside them because there weren't any beds available inside were from another country. And I guess the extra $20 billion that's being pumped into the NHS is just for fun, it's not because there's a pending disaster due to lack of funding.

And for you people that are spouting off your anecdotal stories, spare me. The VA killed my dad 8 years ago and my uncle died this past Tuesday after the assholes with Kaiser misdiagnosed then missed his cancer. After chemo and surgery, they declared him cancer free and then 16 days later he died of cancer in his lungs and liver. So yeah, America's system in its current form sucks too, but let's stop with the constant praise and love for the NHS - it's really silly.

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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2018, 09:26:59 AM »

It isn’t a perfect solution, but the results are better than well meaning interference gone awry.

Ok, so you gave us a long speech on why the market works better for health care than a government based solution.  The interesting thing here is that most of the people here have lived under both, so there's no point in you and I arguing about it.  I'd take the UK system any day and it seems like every time this comes up most people feel the same way.  Sorry, the invisible hand of the market doesn't seem to work in this case. 

As for your scolding about treating the republicans with respect after giving themselves a massive tax cut that is going to impact future generations for years, I respectfully disagree.  I'm sure there are varying levels of greed and lack of empathy within Republicans. 


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2018, 09:28:33 AM »
Are you watching the news?

This guy has insulted every nation he has set foot in. And far worse he is seeking to destabilise.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2018, 09:35:53 AM »
Independents (like myself), people who voted Democrat their entire life, and people who had never voted at all are who elected Donald Trump to the presidency. So if you're going to paintbrush the Trump voter as "Republicans/rightists", you're illustrating that you have no idea why he's president now.

You further illustrate your ignorance when you say he's "fundamentally unqualified" to be president. Based on what, exactly? The fact that he wasn't in DC for 40 years? THAT'S WHY HE WON! He was the first legitimate outsider to ever have a viable chance, and he ran with a message that reverberated through homes across the country. He held campaign rally after campaign rally and gave more speeches than any presidential candidate ever has. He showed up to a rally in Michigan, at about 2am on election day in the freezing cold, and there were THOUSANDS of people who had been waiting all day to hear him layout his vision for the nation and the free world. He won 30 states against the Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, globalist elite, media machine. He shocked the world, but you know who wasn't shocked? Americans like me who stood by his side from day 1 because we believe in his message - that America is the greatest nation to ever exist, and that there is an incredible amount of untapped potential due to awful globalist policies dating back 30 years that needed to change; that the greatest military force ever known needed to be unleashed on the animals known as ISIS; and that America needs to protect her borders from illegals pouring in and ruining her economy. He outworked Hillary; he outsmarted the media; and he told the globalists to shove their red tape and bureaucracies straight up their ass.

So who the f*u*c*k are you to tell people that they made the wrong decision or label them as "ists"? You think you know more than those people about what's best for their future? I don't think so. And it's attitudes like yours that will ensure another 4 years of President Trump come November 2020. And thank God for that, because we aren't sick of winning yet.

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You listed all the reasons he won, not all the reasons he is qualified to be President. 

So who the f*u*c*k are you to tell people that they made the wrong decision or label them as "ists"?
I am a person who can think critically and tell the difference between made up news, propaganda and credible sources.  And a person who can understand that not "being in Dc for 40 years" is not a qualification for being President.  My fish has never been to DC at all.  Is he qualified?  So yes, I'll tell people they made a wrong decision. 


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2018, 10:28:55 AM »
Are you watching the news?

This guy has insulted every nation he has set foot in. And far worse he is seeking to destabilise.

It's awful.  How can he visit somewhere and sh*t all over them? 

I hope the Queen calls him and says she has a headache and can't have a cuppa with him.


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2018, 12:53:19 PM »
Ok, so you gave us a long speech on why the market works better for health care than a government based solution.  The interesting thing here is that most of the people here have lived under both, so there's no point in you and I arguing about it.  I'd take the UK system any day and it seems like every time this comes up most people feel the same way.  Sorry, the invisible hand of the market doesn't seem to work in this case. 

As for your scolding about treating the republicans with respect after giving themselves a massive tax cut that is going to impact future generations for years, I respectfully disagree.  I'm sure there are varying levels of greed and lack of empathy within Republicans.
The US is absolutely not a market based system. Prices are fixed by Medicare, Medicaid, and by negotiated deals by insurance companies... such that, two patients seen one after the other by the same doctor in the same hospital and receiving the same treatment for the same problem, they’re far more likely than not to pay wildly different prices. They also have no idea what those prices are until the bill comes and no ability to shop around. Economically, the US system functions in no way whatsoever like a market.

The UK system you well know has massive problems with price controls. It doesn’t matter if you prefer it that you have a plan that covers most of what you need and you can eventually get in to have it sorted out. Your experience with that system versus someone’s experience with the US system is irrelevant to how it gets funded or how finite care is distributed.

Republicans gave everyone a tax cut. Not just themselves. And tax revenues for the govt are projected to be higher than expected because of it. Obviously there are still some problems with the international applications, but that’ll be worked out.

Conservative theory would say the degree of graduation in the tiered tax system unfairly shifts too much of the burden on those who are more successful. Which is based on a fallacy that no one can be successful but by stealing from average workers. And that the value of one person’s labor is equal to another’s just because they put forth effort. Those things are just plainly not true. Conservatives just believe in meritocracy with the market free to reward those who provide greater value. But the reality is the proportion of cuts given to the rich were much smaller than the rest, resulting in an even more dramatic shifting of the burden onto the rich.

But that tax cut in reality is incredible. The rate for pass throughs has been so dramatic.  I would have said not to expect a big swing for the better cause the markets had already priced in the corporate cuts after the election. But the Main Street effect has been dramatic. My company is starting to have trouble staffing contracts and needing to bump pay up. People are getting more hours. Benefits are creeping better. It’ll take a while to absorb the part time & underemployed pool before salaries start really going up. But rates for young people and across all minority groups are at record levels with no end in site. Yet, the economy isn’t overheating. The tax bill in conjunction with some deregulation has really caused some structural change that the country has desperately needed for a long long time.


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2018, 01:06:39 PM »
The US is absolutely not a market based system. Prices are fixed by Medicare, Medicaid, and by negotiated deals by insurance companies... such that, two patients seen one after the other by the same doctor in the same hospital and receiving the same treatment for the same problem, they’re far more likely than not to pay wildly different prices. They also have no idea what those prices are until the bill comes and no ability to shop around. Economically, the US system functions in no way whatsoever like a market.

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Not everyone has insurance. And for people who don't have insurance... They shop around.

15% of adults aren't insured. (And that number includes those on Medicare or Medicaid).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-americans-are-going-without-health-insurance/
The usual. American girl meets British guy. They fall into like, then into love. Then there was the big decision. The American traveled across the pond to join the Brit. And life was never the same again.


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Re: Davis Resigns
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2018, 08:15:25 PM »
It doesn’t work, huh?

Tell that to everyone in my family who has been treated and saved by the NHS over the last few decades.

The NHS has been working for 70 years and is one of the best and most well-respected healthcare systems in the world (it ranks higher than the US system in world healthcare rankings)

If it takes 9 months for a hip replacement, why did my grandmother get one done in 12 weeks? She then had another hip surgery a few weeks later when it went out of place, and another one a few months after that... all free of charge. She was in hospital for about 3 months... again, free of charge.

My mum’s best friend also got a hip replacement around the same time, but she chose to pay for it privately. It was still many thousands cheaper than in the US. It was done in 2 weeks, by the same surgeon who did my grandmother’s hip surgery.

The same friend was diagnosed with cancer last year - she had quick treatment free on the NHS and is now in remission.

When my brother was born in the 80s, my mum haemorrhaged afterwards - she would have died if it hadn’t been for the fast, free NHS treatment she received.


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I have to agree here. They have standards for timing and unless there's an unforseen emergency (such as a bad flu season filling beds) surgeries like hip replacement are done within 18 weeks of it being determined surgery is the correct course of action. *note: exact timing may vary by CCG.

I am unlucky and have too many conditions to get onto my NHS record, but for the biggest things their referrals have been prompt and the specialists far more adept and understanding than the doctors I paid out the rear for in the US. It is apples and oranges. Things can fall through the cracks anywhere, but the NHS is well respected and I'm not going to go broke even if it is a slow process to get back to where I was with specialists in the states.

*edited to add... I only skimmed most of this because I know there are 2 people commenting on here who must be healthy and have no clue what it's like to rely on medical care you might not be able to afford.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 08:18:50 PM by margo »


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