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Topic: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....  (Read 7719 times)

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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2018, 06:21:12 PM »
Can we please have another referendum where the Russians don't alter the outcome?

Don't you mean trying to get Corbyn in as PM?

"Russian Twitter bots tried to swing general election for Jeremy Corbyn"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/exposed-russian-twitter-bots-tried-to-swing-general-election-for-jeremy-corbyn-zffv8652x


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2018, 06:46:44 PM »
Don't you mean trying to get Corbyn in as PM?

"Russian Twitter bots tried to swing general election for Jeremy Corbyn"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/exposed-russian-twitter-bots-tried-to-swing-general-election-for-jeremy-corbyn-zffv8652x

Do you mean to tell me that a newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch tried to link Russian trolls with the UK's Labour Party? I am shocked. SHOCKED.

(not really very shocked)


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2018, 06:53:45 PM »

So then Sirius, tell us which of the three proposals that you support?  Chequers, that was not only a very bad idea but is completely unacceptable to Europe?  A cliff edge, no deal Brexit where planes are grounded and you and I get to wrestle in the streets for real over food and insulin?  Boris Johnson's yet unspecified "Cake and Eat it too" option?  I know it's a trick question because all three are completely bonkers.  How bad does it have to get before you recognize that the Tories have lost your Brexit?


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2018, 07:07:38 PM »
I'd like to unpick why Sirius is so against a people's vote?  Three choices:
1. we give up and rescind article 50
2. We take the deal that's been negotiated
3. We take the cliff edge

Somehow we weight it or incldude second votes so that if more people actually want a Brexit variation they get it. 

What's wrong with that Sirius?  Are you not confident that the majority will agree with your brilliant logic and/or wish to purify Britain?  If #2 or #3 win, then there's no more debate.  Even better, a significant chunk of people who disagree with you will probably leave the UK immediately and leave you guys to get on with it.  The Tories will have an ironclad mandate.  What's not to like?

On the other hand, if #1 wins, then the actual, specific,  will of the people will be implemented. Even if they have changed their mind since an earlier vote with no information available.  Do you have something against that? 

Surely you must support that?  If you are so sure that everyone supports Brexit, then the cost is minimal and you win.  If you aren't sure, how can you keep peddling this BS about the will of the people?

« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 07:11:22 PM by jimbocz »


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2018, 08:17:54 PM »
Now, now, kiddies.... let's play nice.  I simply think that there was so much about Brexit that was not on the table when the citizenry was asked to vote on it that the citizenry was not given the opportunity to make an informed choice. Not counting the interference from outside parties. 

As a lot of info is now available as to what Brexit would entail (in whichever format it happens), I do think it not unreasonable to allow that citizenry the opportunity to decide what they want, of the options available to them, or if they'd rather remain. Did they vote to drive over a cliff? Did they vote for remaining in a customs union without the power to influence the rules they'd have to use?  I don't think they had a clue about either option at the time the vote was taken.

It does impact everyone in the union, the path that "the government" takes.  Scotland (62%) voted remain. Northern Ireland (55 .8 ) voted remain. England (53%) and Wales (52%) voted leave.  Those are  pretty close margins for leave - basically, about half of the  people were in each camp in the two countries who voted leave.  I'm actually surprised that a simple majority vote was used to decide something as critically important to the Union as the decision to stay/leave the EU.  And, really, it's not like Brexit is "the will of the people" - certainly not for the almost half who voted against it (and then there's the 2/3rds of Scotland).

So, if the UK proceeds through Brexit, roughly half the population of each country's wishes are being ignored. (Sorry, two countries and a province, and then Scotland's 2/3rds. Yada, yada.). That's a huge percentage of the population to disenfranchise.  Brexit will probably facilitate the  breakup of the Union, as Scotland will almost assuredly go indy within the decade after a hard Brexit, and it's iffy even if it's a soft one. What will happen with N.I. remains to be seen. It wouldn't bother Dublin, I don't think, to have their lost counties back in the fold. But it'd be an ugly situation there, again, for some time to get to that. (Ah, hell, not again! I hate funerals.)

If it were me, and if I was running the government, I'd want to be sure that I'd given the governed the chance to make an informed decision as to what they wanted to happen. But then, there seems to be a lot more "government knows best" mentality here than I'm used to. It's irksome, but obviously an ingrained part of the culture.

I can't vote on this, and I'm not sure I would if I could. I get to stay either way. Whether or not I'll ~want~ to stay, if the social conditions in the Union of  countries deteriorate as badly as some pundits are predicting, is another matter. The whole "England above all" thing is beyond a little weird.

I am not comfortable with the prospect that the original vote of roughly only half the population of two of the four countries (yeah, 3 + province) is going to impact the population of all.  Driving off a cliff is going to hurt a lot of people who, realistically, have no way to protect themselves from the fallout. I would hate to see that happen. And a Brexit where the rules remain and there is no local control of them seems...well, insane, in a way, if the original intent was to sever foreign control over those rules.  The game has changed, and I really do believe that the general population of the three +1 should be given a chance to decide, knowing what they hypothetically know now, what they want to do before it's too late.

And yes, you have as many referenda as it takes to make sure that you are following with what the people want. If they change their minds, they change their minds. If they don't, they don't. But they should be consulted.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 09:17:40 PM by Nan D. »


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2018, 06:26:58 AM »
The thing is, and this is as close to truth as you can get in these things, it was a political stunt gone wrong. He had no intentions of actually leaving. He pictured himself cleaning up his party and ensconcing himself in office for a decade.

Thus no plans were made. No real research. Nothing. And it all is taking place in a terrible period of chaos in the world. And during a challenging time here in Britain. Years have been lost to this crap..

So I do get frustrated talking about details of this thing as it stands now, because to me it is like arguing about the colour of Santa's boots.

I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2018, 09:21:27 AM »
Well, I'd like to believe there was at least that (grandstanding) behind it. It's better than thinking that the level of ineptness really is what it looks to be. I mean, pulling the trigger on a critically important process without having thoroughly investigated the impacts or having implementation strategies well-thought-out and ready to go is.... madness.  They do have some weird issues with policy formation and implementation here, though. All the analysis and planning seems to be done in hindsight. How very odd.


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2018, 09:59:30 AM »
Well, I'd like to believe there was at least that (grandstanding) behind it. It's better than thinking that the level of ineptness really is what it looks to be. I mean, pulling the trigger on a critically important process without having thoroughly investigated the impacts or having implementation strategies well-thought-out and ready to go is.... madness. 

You know, "never attribute to malice that which can also be explained by stupidity."

They do have some weird issues with policy formation and implementation here, though. All the analysis and planning seems to be done in hindsight. How very odd.

I've noticed that, too. In US politics they're criticized for focus testing everything to death, but it saves them from the constant u-turns you see in UK politics.


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2018, 10:22:38 AM »
Well I think, looking back, UKIP should have been allowed to develop as a party.  Cameron must have felt that its development would hurt the Tories more than Labour, which doesn't look true today. 

So we can imagine it developing into a party with let's say 23 MPs. As much as I disagree with UKIP crap, they deserve a voice.

I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2018, 10:28:07 AM »
I appreciate that some are going to have a problem as they relied on the very lax EU laws to be in the UK using their "EU rights". That they cannot have British citizenship as they will fail under the Good Character requirement and that they needed to use EU laws to remain in the UK. That their very liberal "EU rights" will end in the UK (but not in the other 27 EEA countries). That having to Register to apply to stay in the UK might cause them problems etc,  but nobody mades you behave you way you did/do.

On the forums these have gone from, we love the EU, to, we hate Brexit. Clinging on to the hope that if they push Project Fear, the UK will vote again and they can then stay in the UK under their "EU rights".

I'm sure these do feel sorry for themselves, but do you care that you make the rules get harder for the honest people?




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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2018, 10:56:30 AM »
But do you care that you make the rules get harder for the honest people?

What exactly is being implied here?
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2018, 02:40:22 PM »
What exactly is being implied here?

I'd almost think that someone was implying I've been dishonest or accusing me of a crime.

Here's what happened to a bitter racist who wrongfully accused someone else of a crime in a public forum:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/katie-hopkins-libel-insolvency-bankruptcy-jack-monroe-a8540961.html

Seriously, I don’t know what crime you think I am guilty of, but if you keep implying it I am going to ask for you to be banned. 

And you lost the argument.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 02:49:41 PM by jimbocz »


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2018, 02:49:14 PM »
I'd almost think that someone was implying I've been dishonest or accusing me of a crime.
Here's what happened to the last bitter racist to wrongfully accuse someone else of a crime in a public forum:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/katie-hopkins-libel-insolvency-bankruptcy-jack-monroe-a8540961.html

Seriously, I don’t know what crime you think I am guilty of, but if you keep implying that I am going to ask for you to be banned. 

And you lost the argument.

Why do you think it is you that I am talking about?


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2018, 02:52:35 PM »
Why do you think it is you that I am talking about?

Was it? 


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Re: So, the big announcement about how to prepare for Brexit today....
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2018, 02:56:16 PM »
Was it? 



Now why would you think that?

I did mention in that same post, the forums where people talk about what they have done. Someone on immigrationboards said that when they got to court and spoke to the judge, the Home Office then produced their posts from that forum.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 03:08:10 PM by Sirius »


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