This makes me so mad.....NHS Service Charges for migrants are being DOUBLED

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6265199/Charges-migrants-use-NHS-DOUBLED-400.html

in my experience (I worked in the NHS for 11 years), it's not people going down our route for residency that are causing the problem - most of us are people who will have jobs and will pay taxes anyway while in the UK. It feels as though we get double-whammied.

I have dual UK/US citizenship, having been born in the UK, and it makes me mad at the inequity that EU migrants don't have to pay at all, neither do other classes of residents who are the very ones who end up using services they are not paying for. This is not about race,  ethnicity, age, religion or culture, but a moan about the fact that its such an unfair double-standard for us.  This will make it impossible for more than a few people to even consider moving here legally, which in itself may cause other problems for the UK.

Sorry.....rant over!

In your experience then, who is causing the "problem"?  Not having a go at you, I am genuinely interested.  Did you see vast numbers of illegals gaming the system to get free health care?   Could you tell who was following "our route" and who wasn't?   Lots of people seem to think this is the case and I'd like to know if you saw that.

I've always thought that blaming foreigners for the problems within the NHS is simple scapegoating and the real issue is years of tory austerity cuts.  I'm sure there's a certain amount of fraud, but simply getting Facebook to pay their corporate taxes would probably pay for all that 10 times over. 

Did you see vast numbers of illegals gaming the system to get free health care?   

Under EU rules, they can just become a "Family Member" of an EEA citizen and have free healthcare from the UK that way, even if they were going to be deported under UK immigration rules. 

The EU also says that EEA citizens and their "Family Members" must be given low income welfare payments in their own name too, whereas if they entered under UK immigration rules, they can't until granted ILR, a minimum of 5 years later.

I've always thought that blaming foreigners for the problems within the NHS is simple scapegoating and the real issue is years of tory austerity cuts.

We can't just magic away these massive debts owed  by privatisation with PFIs (Private Finance Initiatives). The PFIs made the then Labour government look like they had cut the debt, but all they did was kick the can down the road and increase that debt, which future generations have pay. PFIs gave private investors massive returns.


"£30 billion: The cost of Labour's toxic PFI legacy to Scotland"
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14432710.__30_billion__The_cost_of_Labour_s_toxic_PFI_legacy_to_Scotland/

"PFI deals are bleeding the NHS dry"
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/pfi-deals-nhs-struggle-recover-carillion-collapse-government-finance-private-firms-public-sector-a8165716.html

"The bill for private finance initiative (PFI) hospital schemes will hit £2  billion for the first time this year – or £3,729 every 60 seconds."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11748960/The-PFI-hospitals-costing-NHS-2bn-every-year.html

I just want to point out that EU migrants don’t have to pay that’s correct- but the UK is supposed to be able to recover the cost of treatment from the migrants home country. I’ve read that the NHS does a pi** poor job of this. I don’t mind the NHS fee, but it isn’t ringfenced for the NHS, that’s what I have a problem with.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6265199/Charges-migrants-use-NHS-DOUBLED-400.html

in my experience (I worked in the NHS for 11 years), it's not people going down our route for residency that are causing the problem - most of us are people who will have jobs and will pay taxes anyway while in the UK. It feels as though we get double-whammied.

I have dual UK/US citizenship, having been born in the UK, and it makes me mad at the inequity that EU migrants don't have to pay at all, neither do other classes of residents who are the very ones who end up using services they are not paying for. This is not about race,  ethnicity, age, religion or culture, but a moan about the fact that its such an unfair double-standard for us.  This will make it impossible for more than a few people to even consider moving here legally, which in itself may cause other problems for the UK.

Sorry.....rant over!

I just want to point out that EU migrants don’t have to pay that’s correct- but the UK is supposed to be able to recover the cost of treatment from the migrants home country.

That's not correct. How would an EEA country recover those medical costs from the US, for all their citizens using the various EU routes to be in an EEA country? Or from any of the the other non-EEA countries?

What about the EEA citizens who have never lived in their own EEA own but use their dual EEA citizenship to get to another EEA country instead? Their own EEA country won't pay for their healthcare if they haven't been contributing. The UK has now ended paying for the healthcare of British citizen retirees in another EEA country, unless they are in receipt of a UK state pension (have contributed to the UK for at least 10 years).

I don’t mind the NHS fee, but it isn’t ringfenced for the NHS, that’s what I have a problem with.

On the skilled visa forums, they are saying it is very cheap healthcare, compared to what they would have to pay in another country or even in their own country.



Immigration Minister Caroline Nokes said:

    Our NHS is always there when you need it, paid for by British taxpayers. We welcome long-term migrants using the NHS, but the NHS is a national, not international health service and we believe it is right that they make a fair contribution to its long-term sustainability.

    I am pleased that we are a step closer to implementing the changes to the health surcharge, and the extra money raised will go directly towards sustaining and protecting our world-class healthcare system.

    It is only fair that people who come to the UK make a contribution to the running of the NHS, and even with the increase we still continue to offer a good deal on healthcare for those seeking to live in the UK temporarily.

The changes better reflect the cost to the NHS of treating those who pay the surcharge, as the DHSC estimates that the NHS spends £470 on average per person per year on treating those required to pay the surcharge."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/increase-to-immigration-health-surcharge-gives-nhs-extra-funding

Under EU rules, they can just become a "Family Member" of an EEA citizen and have free healthcare from the UK that way, even if they were going to be deported under UK immigration rules. 

The EU also says that EEA citizens and their "Family Members" must be given low income welfare payments in their own name too, whereas if they entered under UK immigration rules, they can't until granted ILR, a minimum of 5 years later.



We can't just magic away these massive debts owed  by privatisation with PFIs (Private Finance Initiatives). The PFIs made the then Labour government look like they had cut the debt, but all they did was kick the can down the road and increase that debt, which future generations have pay. PFIs gave private investors massive returns.


"£30 billion: The cost of Labour's toxic PFI legacy to Scotland"
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14432710.__30_billion__The_cost_of_Labour_s_toxic_PFI_legacy_to_Scotland/

"PFI deals are bleeding the NHS dry"
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/pfi-deals-nhs-struggle-recover-carillion-collapse-government-finance-private-firms-public-sector-a8165716.html

"The bill for private finance initiative (PFI) hospital schemes will hit £2  billion for the first time this year – or £3,729 every 60 seconds."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11748960/The-PFI-hospitals-costing-NHS-2bn-every-year.html

I was sort of hoping to hear an answer from mackdowell, since she has direct experience.  I'm well aware that family members of EEA citizens can use the NHS.  That makes sense, since they most likely pay taxes and contribute to society, much more than most UK citizens as reported consistently in actual research.  That's because the family members of EEA nationals tend to be young, healthy and earning money. 

Good news, we can both agree that PFI deals were largely a rip off, whether done by the Tories or Labour.  Of course, the NHS can be suffering partly  because of BOTH reasons, PFI and tory austerity.

What is this "other forum" you keep referring to?  Is it run by the Daily Mail?  Fox News?  You do know that the internet is full of professional trolls, mostly funded by the Russians, who post stuff in forums like that with the sole purpose of winding people up?  They know exactly what buttons to push to convince people that the UK is swamped by illegal immigrants gaming the system. 

John Major cooked up PFIs.

I'm EU who never lived in my home EU country. The Daughter is a USC with me as a dependent family member (all legal and above-board). I would love to work but have not found a job. She is in higher education for the next several years.

Because I am self-sufficient (supporting us both), we are both required to have "comprehensive sickness insurance" - basically the top-of-the-line health insurance. It isn't cheap.  I pay taxes on my self-sufficient income to the UK, as well as a stiff council tax and the usual VAT, just like everyone else.   Yes, my ex-employer is covering the cost of my CSI as part of my pension package. And I have to pay UK taxes on that as a benefit, even though it's insurance that has a wonking big deductible and only covers 80% of "usual and customary" charges. (3K deductable). I pay for the Daughter's CSI out-of-pocket.

I WISH there was an option to just pay the fee to the NHS for cover and not have to carry the CSI - we'd come out ahead.

John Major cooked up PFIs.

And if you had carried on reading, you would have see he then abandoned the idea becasaue of all the debt it would bring to the NHS. The private investors got about 5 times their return . It was the Labour goverrnment who decided to privatise the NHS with PFIs.

Scotland fared worse, because Labour contolled Scotland back then and Labour not only privatised vast areas of NHS Scotland, but things like education too. That's why when Labour got removed from Scotland, the next  government, the SNP,  found the "£30 billion: The cost of Labour's toxic PFI legacy to Scotland".

NHS Wales were privatised too under the Labour government, but it is unkown how much they are in debt with these PFIs as Labour still control NHS Wales. It will take a different governmemt to reveal how many billions that debt is and how much they have to pay these private investors each year from their budget/s..

And if you had carried on reading, you would have see he then abandoned the idea becasaue of all the debt it would bring to the NHS. The private investors got about 5 times their return . It was the Labour goverrnment who decided to privatise the NHS with PFIs.

Scotland fared worse, because Labour contolled Scotland back then and Labour not only privatised vast areas of NHS Scotland, but things like education too. That's why when Labour got removed from Scotland, the next  government, the SNP,  found the "£30 billion: The cost of Labour's toxic PFI legacy to Scotland".

NHS Wales were privatised too under the Labour government, but it is unkown how much they are in debt with these PFIs as Labour still control NHS Wales. It will take a different governmemt to reveal how many billions that debt is and how much they have to pay these private investors each year from their budget/s..

I'd like to see some concrete evidence from an objective source for your assertion that Labour privatised vast areas of NHS Scotland.  I'm not a huge fan of the Scottish branch of the Labour Party, but I live in Scotland and I can tell you that there are not vast areas of NHS Scotland which are privatised, nor were there before the SNP came to power.

And if you had carried on reading,

Hey speaking of carrying on reading, I just wanted to tell you how good it is to see you're following me again!

Welcome back!

I'm EU who never lived in my home EU country. The Daughter is a USC with me as a dependent family member (all legal and above-board). I would love to work but have not found a job. She is in higher education for the next several years.

Because I am self-sufficient (supporting us both), we are both required to have "comprehensive sickness insurance" - basically the top-of-the-line health insurance. It isn't cheap.  I pay taxes on my self-sufficient income to the UK, as well as a stiff council tax and the usual VAT, just like everyone else.   Yes, my ex-employer is covering the cost of my CSI as part of my pension package. And I have to pay UK taxes on that as a benefit, even though it's insurance that has a wonking big deductible and only covers 80% of "usual and customary" charges.

You are under EU rules so that  your adult US citizen daughter can be in the UK. You and your daughter must have CSIs as the EU's 2004 Directive says that "ecomically inacitve" EEA citizens must have a CSI for themselves and all their "Family Members" to be a "qualifed person" to have a "right to reside" in that EEA country. If you didn't have them, then your daughter would be an illegal overstayer in the UK. Unlike UK "visas", the EU's RCs can just become invalid as the end date on them means nothing.

The EU says you don't need to pay working taxes to that EEA country, to be what they call a "worker qualified person" and then be allowed to have bill free use of the NHS for themselves and all their "Family Members".

The present UK government (May's government) allows those who are "economicaly inactive" to have bill free use of the NHS as long as they have a CSI to be a "qualified person" in the UK. Under present rules, you don't claim on your CSI when you use the NHS.

It's why the EU is saying that after a Brexit, regardless of what is in a Withdrawal Bill, the UK can bill these for their use of the NHS as that is what their Directive says; even if the rules aren't tightened again after Brexit on who can use the NHS bill free.   

I WISH there was an option to just pay the fee to the NHS for cover and not have to carry the CSI - we'd come out ahead.

EU rules and UK rules are not interchanageable.  You are using EU rules and the EU says you need to have CSIs.

Some people tired to use a UK EHIC as their CSI They lost in court.

I'd like to see some concrete evidence from an objective source for your assertion that Labour privatised vast areas of NHS Scotland.

Click on the link above.

  I pay taxes on my self-sufficient income to the UK

You do. But I have always found it is those that try to pay as little taxes as they can, that do the most complaining about lack of government funding.

There was a radio show the other week, where MPs were talking about the number of those using EU routes who go self employed/contract and therefore pay very little taxes to the UK, but still expect to use the NHS bill free for themselves and their children; send their children to state funded schools etc.

It's no wonder we are seeing the rise of the right wing parties in the popular EEA countries (for free movement) and some of those voting to end free movement to their country e.g Switzerland.

I was sort of hoping to hear an answer from mackdowell, since she has direct experience.  I'm well aware that family members of EEA citizens can use the NHS.  That makes sense, since they most likely pay taxes and contribute to society, much more than most UK citizens as reported consistently in actual research.  That's because the family members of EEA nationals tend to be young, healthy and earning money. 

So what are you saying, that it won't matter if the EUs’ Free Movement is only be for those in their 20s, who will work full time and pay full taxes and NICs type 1 and won’t contract, will contribute to the UK and won’t claim welfare from the UK?  If you are, that is what the UK work visas are, which are vastly different to the EU “free movement”.  And how would being in their 20s help people like yourself, who used Free Movement much later in life?

Good news, we can both agree that PFI deals were largely a rip off, whether done by the Tories or Labour. 

There is no doubt at all that it was the Labour party who privatised the NHS with these PFIs, because they were the ones who were in government when they were brought in. Corbyn has been questioned on this as he was part of that government.

Of course, the NHS can be suffering partly  because of BOTH reasons, PFI and tory austerity.

Debts have to be paid back regardless of which government created those debts. There is no money tree. These private companies for the NHS Trusts, were offered about five(?) times return on their original investment and they snatched the government's hand off. As I recall, even the nurses union (?) warned that government about how bad this would be for the NHS.

What is this "other forum" you keep referring to?  Is it run by the Daily Mail?  Fox News?   

You know its immigrationboards.com. I can see your posts on there. I suggested that site to you originally as I could only work out how you could avoid paying 1k to Register one of your children as a British citizen and I wondered if they could think of another way for your other child.  It’s always a shock for those using the EU routes, to find they now have to pay fees because citizenship is not EU laws and therefore that won't be free too.