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Topic: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?  (Read 11940 times)

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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2018, 11:25:56 PM »
You're bad.  ::) ;D


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2018, 11:52:10 PM »
"Hey, people of Britain, remember how y'all voted for tighter border controls? Because you were worried about all the immigrants and terrorists coming over from Europe?

Well we've decided to tighten the border by just letting all the stuff from Europe come in without doing any checks on it at all. That's cool, right?"

Good plan, dude. You should be a politician.

Hmmmmmm, I think you might have buried the lede in your big word salad there.

You mean the Iraq war where soldiers had to up armor their own Humvees with scrap metal they scrounged because - as Donald Rumsfeld put it - "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want"? That logistics guy?

I don't think I'd be bragging about that.
You see the things you’re saying?

There’s no customs checks now. If they don’t have total coverage with 100% coverage on day one then they’re being hypocrites about wanting control of their own customs. That makes no sense.

If there’s demand that needs to be met in the UK then UK officials can make their own decisions about how stiff or flexible they need the border to be to best serve the interests of their own country. That’s the control they voted for - the right to act in the country’s own self interests.

And this is just temporary measures resulting not from the transition but from failure to use all the time from referendum to exit in not building that infrastructure and training up the officers that need to be attached to it.

It’ll be fine. They’ll free flow supplies to meet demand while they’re standing up the infrastructure they need & readjusting the supply chain. It’s beyond stupid to let short term transitional issues to work through stand in the way of long term objectives. Doing so would be the short sighted thinking and fear of change you complained of.

As to outbound goods... a delay due to belligerent EU officials slow walking UK goods, that should be a reason Brexit can’t happen? You mean like Spanish customs officials do every weekday at the exit from Gibraltar means Gibraltar should go back to the Spanish? That hasn’t worked despite several hundred years of trying it.

My logistics guy didn’t run the Army. He was the country director for one or the largest contracting companies in the world.

And I don’t know if you’ve been in the military, been in Iraq, or been to war. I have. You might note Rumsfeld’s position was that after our equipment had been slashed to the bone in the Clinton admin then we didn’t have the capability to do an armored cavalry charge to Baghdad with the equipment that should exist to do that. But that through American ingenuity and tenacity they solved the problem and accomplished the mission through temporary measures that bought time till the country could put in place the infrastructure it needed to carry on properly in the longer term. And that’s what happened.


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2018, 12:01:33 AM »
Am I missing something?  All the MEPs are elected.  And the commisionmers are elected as well?  Then how come Sirius and other people keep saying they are unelected officials making the rules?  And how can you say "EU citizens do not elect the people who run the EU."  Who is doing the voting then if not EU citizens?
Commissioners are appointed & confirmed as part of a slate. Imagine if the US president wasn’t permitted to pick any cabinet member. Each state consulted with the president and nominated one person, which the president cannot refuse, and without knowing what cabinet post that person will be assigned. The president then must accept who given but has total discretion on what post to assign them. Then the senate has to vote to accept or reject the entire slate including the president. That’s the commission. But the commission is also not really in charge.

The agencies don’t really answer to them and in some cases don’t report to them. It’s more like the commission is the senate & the legislative branch and there is no executive branch actually in positive control of the executive branch agencies. It’d be like if the military took suggestions from politicians, and funding, but didn’t actually answer to civilian control. And THAT is the people making the rules, not the political branches.


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2018, 12:03:13 AM »
Open Borders?  Cool! Maybe we can get some of that Chinese baby food, I hear it's way cheaper.
Who exactly do you think is stopping that right now? Cause it isn’t French and German officers sitting at UK ports.


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2018, 07:41:57 AM »
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2018, 08:00:21 AM »
And this is just temporary measures resulting not from the transition but from failure to use all the time from referendum to exit in not building that infrastructure and training up the officers that need to be attached to it.

It’ll be fine. They’ll free flow supplies to meet demand while they’re standing up the infrastructure they need & readjusting the supply chain.

"Hey, potential refugees of Europe and Africa, the UK is going to stop checking all the trucks and ships coming into our ports, but only temporarily. So remember a couple of years ago when you tried to get to the UK but were stopped at the big migrant camp in Calais? Well, now that the UK is no longer in the EU, the French no longer have an incentive to stop you, and the UK won't have the infrastructure in place to do it, either! So hurry! The ships full of bricks to build the new border stations are steaming their way across the Atlantic right now!"

There are a lot of untended consequences in your various glibly tossed off plans.

And I don’t know if you’ve been in the military, been in Iraq, or been to war. I have.

Yeah, I know, you tell us in just about every post. I was in the military, but I got out in 1999. Nonetheless, your and my military service does not give us some exclusive permission to discuss military matters. Ours is a civilian led military, and most of the issues we're discussing have been written about in great length by journalists and historians for the expressed purpose of keeping civilians informed about what their military is doing.

You might note Rumsfeld’s position was that after our equipment had been slashed to the bone in the Clinton admin then we didn’t have the capability to do an armored cavalry charge to Baghdad with the equipment that should exist to do that. 

That's funny, because I remember the first President Bush cutting back drastically in 1989 after the Soviet Union dissolved, and I remember Rumsfeld firing General Shinseki when he suggested a number of troops that didn't fit in with Rumsfeld's vision for how easy the 2nd Iraq war was going to be. Good to know all of that was Bill Clinton's fault.

But that through American ingenuity and tenacity they solved the problem and accomplished the mission through temporary measures that bought time till the country could put in place the infrastructure it needed to carry on properly in the longer term. 

And how many soldiers were killed and injured in vehicles which were unsuited to the mission they'd been assigned to accomplish while they were forced to dig through Iraqi trash to find the scrap metal to protect themselves? Are you seriously suggesting this failure of leadership to properly prepare to invade another country was an example of American triumph?


Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2018, 08:15:39 AM »
Am I missing something?  All the MEPs are elected.  And the commisionmers are elected as well?  Then how come Sirius and other people keep saying they are unelected officials making the rules?  And how can you say "EU citizens do not elect the people who run the EU."  Who is doing the voting then if not EU citizens?

EU citizens are just citizens of EU Member States.  Citizens of an EU MS get to elect MEPs to the EU Parliament.  The Parliament is one of the three constituent bodies of the EU.  MEPs are supposed to represent the interests of their constituents (so, the London MEPs represent the interests of Londoners) in the EP.  Citizens of an EU Member State play no rôle in choosing who runs the EU.

The other two bodies are the Council (the governments of the Member States) and the Commission, which runs the EU for the governments of the Member States — not for the citizens of the Member States.

The EU is not the United States of Europe (fortunately, IMO). 

Citizens of a Member State only rarely get an opportunity to express a view on their country’s participation in the EU.  Citizens of Britain did get that opportunity, in 2016.  We’re currently living with the consequences.



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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2018, 03:21:36 PM »
Well isn't this all  just so much fun.

Remember that curse: "May you live in interesting times."?

Uh huh.


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2018, 08:48:47 PM »
EU citizens are just citizens of EU Member States.  Citizens of an EU MS get to elect MEPs to the EU Parliament.  The Parliament is one of the three constituent bodies of the EU.  MEPs are supposed to represent the interests of their constituents (so, the London MEPs represent the interests of Londoners) in the EP.  Citizens of an EU Member State play no rôle in choosing who runs the EU.

The other two bodies are the Council (the governments of the Member States) and the Commission, which runs the EU for the governments of the Member States — not for the citizens of the Member States.

The EU is not the United States of Europe (fortunately, IMO). 

Citizens of a Member State only rarely get an opportunity to express a view on their country’s participation in the EU.  Citizens of Britain did get that opportunity, in 2016.  We’re currently living with the consequences.


But I still don't get who's UNELECTED in this whole process.  I have painstakingly found out the parliment is apparently entirely elected.  And I guess the Commision as well.  All that is left are the council.  How are those people chosen?  Do people vote for them?


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2018, 09:19:03 PM »
EU citizens are just citizens of EU Member States.  Citizens of an EU MS get to elect MEPs to the EU Parliament.  The Parliament is one of the three constituent bodies of the EU.  MEPs are supposed to represent the interests of their constituents (so, the London MEPs represent the interests of Londoners) in the EP.  Citizens of an EU Member State play no rôle in choosing who runs the EU.

The other two bodies are the Council (the governments of the Member States) and the Commission, which runs the EU for the governments of the Member States — not for the citizens of the Member States.

The EU is not the United States of Europe (fortunately, IMO). 

Citizens of a Member State only rarely get an opportunity to express a view on their country’s participation in the EU.  Citizens of Britain did get that opportunity, in 2016.  We’re currently living with the consequences.

.
The US House of Representatives represents the people. The Senate does not. It represents states as separate entities (the governments of the states) and hence was originally appointed by the states. Then the executive branch under the president runs the country for the benefit of the country - which includes the people but also the states.

If that sounds familiar to what you just described of the EU, then it is by design. And you should be able to pretty clearly see, especially as it’s spelled out in black and white, the a slow incremental move from articles of confederation to constitution is progressing. They couldn’t more clearly say the intent is to unite to a single country and dissolve subordinate states as sovereign entities, short of the present leaders coming right out and saying that. I’d say in a decade they will be saying that. And maybe another decade they will achieve it.

Also an EU citizen from France living in London gets to vote for the a London MEP, right?


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2018, 09:25:24 PM »
But I still don't get who's UNELECTED in this whole process.  I have painstakingly found out the parliment is apparently entirely elected.  And I guess the Commision as well.  All that is left are the council.  How are those people chosen?  Do people vote for them?
The commission is NOT elected. They are appointed.

The council is the governments of the subordinate states, so presumably they’re elected.

The bigger issue are the agencies and courts which are NOT entirely controlled, in some cases not at all, by the political branches. And none of those employees are elected. However, they write and implement most rules with no input or ability to change from the political branches. In the US, an agency like that would at least be under the direct control of a cabinet secretary and several other appointed & confirmed principles down through the deputy levels, and if congress didn’t like what they were doing then they could change it, or courts could order their actions to comply with acts of congress.


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2018, 09:57:04 PM »
"Hey, potential refugees of Europe and Africa, the UK is going to stop checking all the trucks and ships coming into our ports, but only temporarily. So remember a couple of years ago when you tried to get to the UK but were stopped at the big migrant camp in Calais? Well, now that the UK is no longer in the EU, the French no longer have an incentive to stop you, and the UK won't have the infrastructure in place to do it, either! So hurry! The ships full of bricks to build the new border stations are steaming their way across the Atlantic right now!"

There are a lot of untended consequences in your various glibly tossed off plans.

Yeah, I know, you tell us in just about every post. I was in the military, but I got out in 1999. Nonetheless, your and my military service does not give us some exclusive permission to discuss military matters. Ours is a civilian led military, and most of the issues we're discussing have been written about in great length by journalists and historians for the expressed purpose of keeping civilians informed about what their military is doing.

That's funny, because I remember the first President Bush cutting back drastically in 1989 after the Soviet Union dissolved, and I remember Rumsfeld firing General Shinseki when he suggested a number of troops that didn't fit in with Rumsfeld's vision for how easy the 2nd Iraq war was going to be. Good to know all of that was Bill Clinton's fault.

And how many soldiers were killed and injured in vehicles which were unsuited to the mission they'd been assigned to accomplish while they were forced to dig through Iraqi trash to find the scrap metal to protect themselves? Are you seriously suggesting this failure of leadership to properly prepare to invade another country was an example of American triumph?
Jesus man, I don’t have all day to respond to this stuff. You’re clearly not going to convince me of anything.

There are already zero customs checks on goods inbound from the EU, and there are already UK border officials checking those trucks. None of that will change no matter the deal. The only question is how long it’ll take to get customs officials there to also collect the right amount of taxes.

Armor is a great thing. The survivability built into my Apache saved my life a few times. But more soldiers die from too much weight slowing them down and then being outmaneuvered than from lack of adequate protection. I don’t know about you, but driving around a war zone at 30mph cause the overloaded truck catches on fire faster than that is not my idea of a good strategy.

What you need for an armored cav invasion is a crap load of APCs and there weren’t enough, so people were rolling in the back with soft skin trucks. But then artillery & support elements have always been behind the line of advance in soft skin vehicles. And the strategy has always been for the lead element to wipe out any heavy weapon in their path so they’re no threat to follow on elements. That doesn’t stop irregular troops and AT teams from waiting for the lead elements to pass and hitting the softer tail. Which happened. You can reduce that risk by detailing pointy elements to protect the train, but it reduces your hitting power forward. And you can combat it by going forward like a bat out of hell to cut the head off the snake and then see what fight is left in your rear. They did the latter, and tactically it was very successful with reasonable casualties regardless of what trucks they had to work with. It took years and years after that before proper vehicles were developed for the COIN level faced. It would have been better to have those at the start, but honestly, nothing survives a 155 round detonated directly under or near it.

Overall that conflict went okay. Our casualty numbers throughout were low. It was effective in drawing foreign fighters away from Afghanistan and other parts of the world and concentrating them in one place on terrain where we could kill the hell out of them. The partisan militias from home grown extremists and the intervention of Iran were not helpful, but we managed through it and AQ globally is pretty well suppressed today as a result. With the help of outside pressure from JSOC and drone strikes. You may not like it, but that largely was a successful war.

If civilians want to comment on things like that, I really don’t mind, but they’d be better served if they understood the tactics and strategy employed, why, and what it achieved.


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2018, 10:05:33 PM »
But I still don't get who's UNELECTED in this whole process.  I have painstakingly found out the parliment is apparently entirely elected.  And I guess the Commision as well.  All that is left are the council.  How are those people chosen?  Do people vote for them?

The Council is the EU Membership - the national governments of the EU Member States. 

The national government of a Member State doesn’t have to be elected to the Council.  The definition of the Council is that it’s composed of the EU Member States.  Plus (I believe) representatives from a few other bodies that are not constituent bodies.

This is all explained on the EU website, much better than I can do.  It hardly requires painstaking effort to discover.   :)


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2018, 10:32:36 PM »
Jesus man...

While it might be fun to compose a response to your contradictory and simplistic points, I agree with you that we're not going to change each other's minds, so I'm going to watch football instead.

I will say, though, that "Overall that conflict went ok," is quite possibly the dumbest thing anyone has ever written about the 2nd Iraq war. Congratulations.


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Re: Sooo, they have a tentative Brexit agreement?
« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2018, 12:08:04 AM »
While it might be fun to compose a response to your contradictory and simplistic points, I agree with you that we're not going to change each other's minds, so I'm going to watch football instead.

I will say, though, that "Overall that conflict went ok," is quite possibly the dumbest thing anyone has ever written about the 2nd Iraq war. Congratulations.
You clearly have no clue about anything that’s been happening in GWOT.


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