Paris is burning.

Many of whom have paid their wrkring taxes to the UK for 50 plus years.


It's not the single teen mums that are the problem. It's the two able bodied parents who continually ask for low income benefit to keep their children even though these parents are age 40 plus and could work and keep their own chidren! The present system means that workiers in their 20s who are working and not claiming benefits and don't have any savings, are having to pay for the teenage children of these 40 plus parents. That is ending. Abuse always gets stopped.

You are saying that over forty, partnered parents of teenagers are causing a crisis in public expenditure? That is your focus?

Do you ever look at budgets at all?




 

The present welfare system means that workers in their 20s who are working and not claiming benefits and don't have any savings; young parents who are working and keeping their own children and not asking for benefits, are having to pay for the teenage children of these 40 plus parents who could work and keep their own children

There is no fee paid by young parents to older parents. That is silly.

There is no fee paid by young parents to older parents. That is silly.

They do pay and that is over. The game is up. Too many able bodied, two parent families, of age 40 plus were doing it and that is ending. Abuse always gets shut down.

Under the Welfare Reforns laws that are coming in, both able bodied parents with teenage children will now have a minimum earning per week they must meet which is 35 hours a week each,  at the hourly national minimum wage. There will be no more renewing their benefit claim every year by phone and then just getting that benefit money in their bank account.

Those that don't meet their minumum earnings will now have to do what jobseekers presently have to do:  attend the jobcentres, prove they are looking for more work, go to the work providers  etc. Any savings or capital they have might now reduce or end their low income benefit claim. Those claiming to be self employed can avoid the job centre, but their benefits will now be based on that set amount, even if they don't earn that much every week. etc

It's over. The game is up. Too many were doing it and that is ending. Abuse always gets shut down.

Both able bodied parents with teenage children will now have a minimum earning per week they must meet. There wil be no more renewing their benefit claim every year by phone and then getting that benefit money in their bank account. Instead these will now have to do what jobseekers presently have to do, attend the jobcentres, prove they are looking for more work, go to the work providers etc. Any savings or capital will reduce or end their low income benefit claim. Those claiming to be self employed,can avoid the job centres but their claim is based on a set amount, even oif they don't earn that much every week.

No, I am saying there is no such thing as money young parents have to pay to older parents. That is a silly assertion.

No, I am saying there is no such thing as money young parents have to pay to older parents. That is a silly assertion.

Where do think the money comes from to give to the 40+ able bodied parents, who are asking for benefits to keep their children?


For those that want to keep their own children but have got caught in the benefit trap; or those that lose their job and take a low paying job and need low income benefit while they look for higher paid work; or those that have high debts and then become too ill to work etc the new welfare system is much better for these.

I know WAY too many people in real life who voted Leave.

Including my well off elderly inlaws.   

And your husband?

And your husband?

Yup!  Dumbass. 

Fortunately he completely regrets the decision now.  He was one of the idiots that didn't think Leave would happen - and he didn't actually want it too.  Just wanted to make a point.  Like I said, idiot.    I still love him though. 

My inlaws still think it was the right decision though.  Even though my FIL can't sell his business now as no one is buying.  So he's 71 and still working. 

Where do think the money comes from to give to the 40+ able bodied parents, who are asking for benefits to keep their children?

You do realise that is not at all how public finance works. One specific group paying for another specific group.

Can I suggest some basic texts or something?

This is the first time I've ever heard that the child benefit system is being gamed by parents over 40. 

Can you explain exactly how these people are abusing the system?  Are they lying about something?  What does able bodied have to do with it?  Why is it different for younger parents?  How prevalent is this abuse as a total percentage of fraud?  As a total percentage of people receive benefit?  Without specific answers to these questions, I can't take this seriously.

I think this may be happening here


Everywhere it says "Public Opinion", just substitute "Sirius' Fantasy"

This is the first time I've ever heard that the child benefit system is being gamed by parents over 40. 

The UK state pension is contribution based only, but are in the welfare figures. Worrking age low income benefits are the highest figures, which is why parents will now have to work under the Welfare Reforns and they will not get more on benefits anymore than they do from working: too many were choosing benefits as lifestyle choice.

Low income benefits: in this case, the Tax Credit benefits and Housing Benefit.  To be run by the DWP under the Welfare Reform laws instead of by thousands of smaller offices.

Child Benefit is for when neither parent is a higher earner. CB is not an "income based benefit" but it does have an income cap. Run by HMRC as they can see if somebody does become a high earner and can then issue fines if that salary increase was not declared on an SA (paid back to the welfare state). But any court case for benefit fraud, is brought to court by the DWP as they now handle all benefit fraud cases and IUC (interview under caution) with the claimant.

I think this may be happening here


Everywhere it says "Public Opinion", just substitute "Sirius' Fantasy"

You have confused the word "abuse" with "fraud". When too many carry out abuse, in any walk of life, then it gets shut down. Whereas fraud is often a criminal offence.

It's the abuse that we have been talking about, that is getting closed down under the Welfare Reform laws, e.g.
- able bodied two parent families of working age, with teenage children, where the parents decide to ask for low income benefits payments to keep their children and themselves, instead of working/working much;
-those with thousands in savings and capital claiming they are in poverty and asking for low income benefits;
-all the various types of self employed abuse and claiming low income benefits etc
None of that is fraud, but it is abuse.

The new system is expected to find fraud too as this one low income welfare payment will be dealt with by just the DWP, instead of thousands of different benefit offices across the UK. The DWP also have access to HMRC's new(ish) RTI system that catches those carrying out fraud; to UKVI exit records too now; now use the various credit companies to carry out sweeps (look for a credit footprints to show who lives at a property); have access to a benefit claimants bank records, and to family too is seems if they suspect fraud. etc

They Welfare Reform laws also override the European Court of Justice Rulings that some EEA citizens brought to have UK benefits.That was classed as abuse and is getting shut down too along with other abuse too  This was nothing to do with Brexit as these Welfare Reform Bills had been going through Parliamant and the Lords for years before they became law.

I agree with some of what you're saying here, Sirius, but I think your definitions are wrong. You seem to be defining "fraud" as "activity that is illegal" and "abuse" as "activity that is not illegal, but does not follow the spirit of the law."

You have confused the word "abuse" with "fraud".
It's the abuse that is getting closed down under the Welfare Reforms, e.g.
- able bodied two parent families of working age, with teenage children, where the parents decide to ask for welfare payment to keep their children instread of working/working much;

This scenario is neither abuse nor fraud, it's someone deciding - within the existing rules - whether to work or ask for benefits. If your point is a family with two able-bodied parents should work rather than get a handout from the government, then I agree with you, but I don't find fault with the family who chooses benefits, I find fault with the government that put the rules in place.

-those with thousands in savings and capital claiming they are in poverty and asking for benefits;

If they are hiding their savings and capital in order to claim benefits they would not get if the savings and capital were declared, then that is fraud. If under the current rules they are allowed to have the savings and capital openly, and are somehow still able to claim benefits, then again, that is a problem with the system, not with the people.

-all the various types of self employed abuse and claiming low income benefits etc

Same as before. If someone is self employed and properly declaring all of their income and they are still able to get benefits using the rules of the system that are in place, that's not fraud or abuse. Only if they are not declaring some or all of their self employed income in order to claim benefits is it fraud.

Under your definitions, "abuse" should be fixed by the government making the rules.

I agree with some of what you're saying here, Sirius, but I think your definitions are wrong. You seem to be defining "fraud" as "activity that is illegal" and "abuse" as "activity that is not illegal, but does not follow the spirit of the law."
...
Under your definitions, "abuse" should be fixed by the government making the rules.

It the government who decide if a system is being abused; as has happenedd here with the welfare changes too. These Welfare Reforms actually started when there was a Labour government and have then carried on with all the following governments as they saw it as abuse too. New laws take years to go through.

You can call something what you like, but if the system is being abused by too many, then it comes to the attention of the government and they shut it down.

And another great Scottish initiative. The Pregnancy and Baby Payment will come into effect next week offering £600 payment for a first baby or £300 for another other baby.

Once again,  another reason why I love living in such a caring and giving country.

Too bad I've already had all my children. At least I can still take advantage of our free prescriptions and the free minor ailments service.

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