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Topic: Accidental american starting to file tax  (Read 3312 times)

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Accidental american starting to file tax
« on: April 13, 2019, 04:06:04 PM »
Twenty-nine years ago I was born in the UK to my American mother, since then I've only been to the states for a total of 2 weeks and up to a couple of weeks ago, I didn't know what a 1040 was. So it seems I'm going to have to go down the 'streamlined' procedure to get into tax compliance. 3 years of tax returns (16/17/18) and 6 years of FBAR.
Please be patient with me as there's a lot of new information for me to cope with, and it is very overwhelming and scary for someone who's never had to file anything before.

I see a lot of people suggesting that getting some sort of accountant to help with filing is a good idea, but looking at some of the quotes online I can't really afford that right now, so I'm going to have to DIY it. Hence my post here. I have the following things I'm stuck with:

Currently my income easily falls within the FEIE limits. About £37k.

1. I am about to buy my first house with my British wife. We'll have to jointly own the property as I earn far more than she does and we can't get a mortgage otherwise. When we sell the property in a few year time, would I be able to use the "sale of home" exclusion https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc701 on any profits in addition to the foreign earned income exclusion (FEIE) on my normal income?

2. Two years ago I finished my PhD (April 2017). I received a PhD stipend during this time, about 13k per year which was tax free in the UK. According to this, https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc421, it looks like a stipend would be taxable in the states. If income is not taxed in the UK, can it be included in the FEIE, given that it is wages? Does this also apply to the UK personal allowance?

3. I have a stocks and shares savings account with about £1.3k in it, I really can't figure out which tax form I need to report the interest gained on that. Though I will be closing this account immediately anyway.

4. If I were to travel abroad for a number of months in a year, so as to no longer qualify for the FEIE, would it just be that tax year that would be affected, or would future tax years be affected as well?

5. The current list of forms I think I need to fill out is:
1040 - main tax form
2555-EZ - FEIE
FBAR form

6. I read that the cutoff date for filing taxes is June. But I just discovered that I have to pay anything due by April 15th. There is zero chance of me getting everything done in the next two days. As my PhD income could be liable for tax (EDIT: and my stocks and shares account is probably liable too, only about £30-40 income per year though), have I missed this year already? I thought I had time but would I be better off waiting till December and filing for (17/18/19) streamlined procedure.

Any other things I should be aware of or taxes I need to pay?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 06:11:35 PM by noZenHere »


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2019, 05:43:16 PM »
Welcome to UK Yankee.

First, I would encourage you to not do anything until you have the opportunity to digest and evaluate all options, and to fully understand the implications involved.

If I may, could I ask some questions?

Do you have a US Social Security Number? Was your birth recorded abroad with the US Embassy? Do you have a US Passport? What prompted your desire to become compliant with US taxation. Was it something you read in the media? Was it a question from a UK bank or building society? Are you reacting out of a feeling of obligation or do you feel retaining US citizenship will have advantages for you? Do you ever intend on studying or living in the US in the future? Have you done research on Accidental Americans and the choices they face? Have you considered renunciation of US Citizenship? Although it appears to be so, are you positive you are/remain a US citizen (for example, there have been no self-relinquishing acts)?

To start with, under FEIE, you will qualify as a 'bona fide' UK resident, and any foreign travel is therefore not an issue. But, once you get into the taxation, you might consider FTC which has no such time period requirements.


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2019, 06:00:46 PM »
Thanks for the response.

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Do you have a US Social Security Number?
I do not. I just read now that I would have to go to the embassy to get one in London?
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Was your birth recorded abroad with the US Embassy? Do you have a US Passport?
I'm not sure, but I do have an old expired US passport my parents got me, so I would assume so.
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What prompted your desire to become compliant with US taxation
Very much a feeling of obligation. It was because I recently heard about the requirement in the media. I then read that the US have started to crack down on it in recent years so I couldn't ignore it. I don't know if that's accurate but I heard of some pretty astonishing actions that the US could take against me (insane fines etc.). I've always been pretty neutral about my US citizenship, but this has certainly put a sour note on it. As such I am considering giving up my citizenship. But I think I need 7 years worth of tax filings to do that, so that would be this "streamlined procedure" plus four more years of filing tax. So I believe I have four more years to think about it.
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are you positive you are/remain a US citizen
I'm not positive that I'm still a US citizen, but I assume that if I have a passport I am. What kind of things could void it?

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First, I would encourage you to not do anything until you have the opportunity to digest and evaluate all options, and to fully understand the implications involved.
Okay, thank you.


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2019, 08:57:52 PM »
Thank you for the reply and information. People react differently when they discover they are an Accidental American with obligations (what's commonly referred to as the OMG moment). You sound understandably stunned, but unlike many others, not panicked.

Be wary of what you read in the press and on the sites of tax advisors. The information may be basically correct, but it's often laced with fear tactics and undue scaremongering. This is in truth a common, straightforward situation with the IRS which has effected thousands of Accidentals worldwide. You are not the only person facing this at this time; there are thousands. There are various ways of proceeding, but how you proceed depends much on your personal value judgements.

A growing popular attitude amongst accidentals, if there is no US indicia (born abroad, no passport, no embassy notification, etc.), is to simply ignore the whole thing. The IRS would not know about you, and unless you give them reason, would continue to not know about you. The proviso is to avoid frequent US trips in the future, avoid living in the US in the future, and avoid having any assets in the US. That obviously requires a wilful intent to avoid the issue.

For someone in your position (a past record in the form of a passport), the same can apply although, again, it would involve a higher degree of wilful intent to avoid the issue. Still, the IRS does not know about you, and possibly, you would have had no reason to file a US tax return (income has always been below filing thresholds for your status for example).

It's also important to point out that the act of renouncing US citizenship is, currently, in no way tied to filing a tax return. If you so decided, you could go to the US Embassy next month and renounce your US citizenship. There's nothing to stop you and the renunciation is legal. Of course, there is the small matter of the $2,350 fee to do so. You could then tackle tax reporting for the current year and previous years during the following year. Or, you simply forget about ever reporting, but, you would wilfully be evading tax reporting responsibilities and the US could act in response, although again, currently, that is a less than likely response. There could be ramifications in the future if you, say, left an inheritance to a US citizen (by the way - your children would not be US citizens; you don't meet the residency requirements to pass USC on to them). It's a question of how you would feel about doing that. For some, it's not an issue, but for others, there is the inclination to withdraw from the US in a formalised, proper fashion. One never knows what legislation the US Congress will pass in the future, and influencing the UK to cooperate in detection is certainly not unknown. What causes someone to not sleep at night depends on the individual.

To withdraw properly and avoid any possible repercussions, one files 5 years of past IRS 1040 returns and 6 years of FBARs. Note, if you were to file in such a manner before 15 June 2019, the current years return (2018) would count as a normal year and the three delinquent filings would be for 2015, 2016, and 2017. That would only leave one additional year, which could be 2014.

The IRS page referring to Streamlined Offshore procedures can be found here:
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/u-s-taxpayers-residing-outside-the-united-states

Your stocks and shares account will require a lot of research into past performance. Sale and a gain on your personal property is covered by the $250,000 exclusion (S, MFS), but beware of currency gains on the mortgage. I'm unsure about your stipend, but perhaps others will comment (my guess is it is somehow covered). The FEIE is for excluding 'earned' income only (related to your income from employment). All other income (interest, etc.) is deemed 'unearned' income. Unearned income can be offset by the standard deduction or by using FTCs (Foreign Tax credits) for all income instead of FEIE for earned income only.

Many do complete the package on their own without the need of a professional. It all depends on your ability to read and research what is involved, and your tolerance of form filing. Forms required will vary according to the particular years. The new forms for 2018 are somewhat different than those required for previous years.

Check with your parents if they are available to find what your US Social Security number is. At the time you were born I believe a US SSN was automatically issued. If you can't locate it, the US Social Security Administration can help. Confirmation of your US citizenship would have been required at the time your passport was issued, but an SSN may not have been.
https://www.americansabroad.org/obtaining-reclaiming-your-social-security-number-ssn/

As for self-relinquishing acts in your case (already born a UKC), serving in HM Forces or other government posts will do, or any oath to HRH QEII, among others, but you have to go through the paperwork proving the act and would still have to pay the $2,350 fee to relinquish. In the past there was no fee to file for a self-relinquishment, but now days most simply go the renunciation route since the fee is the same.

You'll need time to take all this in, but anytime you need further direction as to where you might locate information, post your question here and someone will try to answer. There are many professionals who will be more than willing to help, at varying fee ranges, but most will want at least £1,000 to start a full Streamlined filing. If you feel so inclined, contact several and ask for a free consultation.















« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 09:02:58 PM by theOAP »


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2019, 10:25:48 PM »
Thank you for your post!!
Quote
You sound understandably stunned, but unlike many others, not panicked.
I was panicking last week. And feeling some serious anxiety this week. Things are starting to feel a little clearer now though.

Reading your post a few times it's clear I need to spend some time to processing this all. I don't want to give up my citizenship rashly if I can get by with just a few limitations. But at the same time it's not really doing anything for me now or at least for the next few years.
Edit. Lets just go on the assumption that I will be filing, even if it's unlikely to get found out. I don't want to be living in fear all the time. My bank knows I'm a US citizen, I just have too many links to guarantee that it doesn't come back to bite me.

I think the fact that my wife isnt a US citizen is very convenient in terms of me pushing my income towards her investments. With regards to my marital status, should I file as married filing separately, as I am married, without providing any info on who my wife is?  If anything, the IRS should never get her details.

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Your stocks and shares account will require a lot of research into past performance.
Does my simple account balance at the start and end of the tax year subtracted from one another not provide the necessary taxable unearned income figure?

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Forms required will vary according to the particular years. The new forms for 2018 are somewhat different than those required for previous years.
Expletive. ####

I would be very interested in any info on my tax free stipend.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 11:09:31 PM by noZenHere »


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2019, 06:02:29 AM »
Great advice from the OAP. Please do heed it, and avoid taking any action until you’re in possession of all the facts.

I am someone who desperately wishes i had never attempted compliance. Unbeknownst to me, it was my first step toward renunciation, which was finally done last year. This is because once I stepped into that hornet’s nest, I quickly realised it would be unsustainable to carry on and the only way out was renunciation. It was a very very expensive mistake.

I recommend reaching out to the Accidental Americans group on Facebook and Twitter. Fabien, their president, would be glad to help you I am sure. As OAP said, you’re not alone, and this is a grossly unjust situation which is currently being fought by many many people.

Finally I would just suggest writing to your MP and to HM Treasury. Mel Stride is aware of the situation and he needs to hear from as many accidentals as possible. We are trying to push him into action. Good luck :)


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2019, 09:46:05 AM »
Hi LionHeart.

Thank you for your perspective. What exactly made it so unsustainable and expensive for you?

If my bank (HSBC) knows I'm a dual national, would that scupper any chances of remaining under the radar? (if that's what I decided to do). A few days ago I had a mortgage interview and they asked me directly if I was a dual national. I couldn't lie. I didn't provide any documentation to prove it though.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 09:58:33 AM by noZenHere »


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2019, 11:22:12 AM »
I don't want to give up my citizenship rashly if I can get by with just a few limitations. But at the same time it's not really doing anything for me now or at least for the next few years.
Entirely understandable. It's your right to have USC and it shouldn't be discarded on a whim. It's also important to fully understand the obligations of maintaining USC. To participate properly as a USC resident in the UK requires constant attention to the ramifications of those obligations. Every financial move you make (daily) requires an evaluation of it's consequences for US taxation. To the US, you are a USC primarily. Your UK citizenship is only a tolerable, but not endorsed, side issue.

As a recent PhD graduate, you will have the opportunity for a bright financial future. Don't underplay the considerations that will be required in that future due to USC and it's obligations. For example, as a side note, although it's probably too late to consider now, did you register with the US Selective Service System for the military draft? All USC males no matter where they are resident in the world, on attaining 18 years of age, are required to register. If you didn't register, it is now impossible to obtain US Government loans for higher education expenses. Honestly, that may not concern you, but it's an example of the various obligations that exist.
 
US taxation of UK income can not be on a 'perhaps' basis. Playing with the US rules can be risky. On the financial side, you asked about 'tax free' UK offerings such as your stipend. Generally, anything tax free in the UK is taxed by the US. The US generally does not recognise anything tax free in the UK. UK Personal Allowances, ISAs, the first £1,000/£500 of normal savings account interest, NIC contributions, Council Tax, etc. are all subject to US taxation. The US taxation can be offset, in most cases but not always, by either the FEIE or FTCs. But a US tax return is required in order to take advantage of FEIE and FTC; they are not automatically given. You'll have to consider the reporting, or not, of any pension plan you are involved in (personal or employer), any insurance policy you may have, all bank accounts, the UK State Pension, the agreement of your wife to be included (required) on an FBAR for any jointly held accounts, brokerage accounts, etc.

Does my simple account balance [stocks and shares account] at the start and end of the tax year subtracted from one another not provide the necessary taxable unearned income figure?

No.

They are a PFIC and the US taxes them in the most punitive manner available. (The US discourages USCs from investing outside the US.)    (IMO), a detailed daily(?) MtM (Mark to Market) evaluation is required where the account was not reported and the accounting method not defined in its first year of existence. On some sites, it is suggested that for an account balance such as yours, that the account is reported on the US return as simply a savings account with a yearly gain in interest, but again, all depends on your tolerance of risk since this would not be the proper reporting method.

I think the fact that my wife isnt a US citizen is very convenient in terms of me pushing my income towards her investments. With regards to my marital status, should I file as married filing separately, as I am married, without providing any info on who my wife is?  If anything, the IRS should never get her details.
Yes, your wife's NRA status is one of your strongest assets. She may invest in anything she likes, as long as your name is not also on the accounts. As an NRA, she is not required to report to the IRS (although you can arrange that if you wish). File MFS (married filing Separate) to take advantage of her status. Your wife will need to be acknowledged, for example, on any joint accounts reported on the FBAR.

NOW, after all that........ :)
It is possible to exist financially as a USC resident in the UK. I've been filing US returns for almost 40 years, but I have restricted my financial investments to simple bank/building society/cash ISA accounts. It's too late for me to become involved in stocks and shares, but if I could have earlier in my UK life, I would possibly be in better financial shape today then I currently am. But I also must confess, we're not exactly starving. One may still thrive whilst maintaining USC as a resident in the UK.

Generally, USC offers one positive: the right to live in the US. Beyond that, the USC will not benefit you in any way as a UK resident. No, the US Marines will not come to your aid in a time of trouble - you are a UKC to them and the UKs responsibility. Your UK passport offers entrance to an equal number of countries in the world. 


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2019, 01:06:06 PM »
noZenHere, based on 3 years of research and contact with other duals and accidentals, I personally don’t think that you will be contacted by the IRS based on HSBC or your mortgage provider knowing you’re a dual citizen. AFAIK there has not been one single case of this happening. Those who get destroyed tend to be those who tried to do ‘the right thing’ and voluntarily come into compliance. As the OAP said, there are many pitfalls in being compliant with the US tax code while living permanently in the UK under the UK tax code. And even if you don’t comply, some ordinary UK financial products will be closed to you because of your USC, eg investment accounts and stocks and shares ISAs, because the financial institution can’t cope with the compliance on their side.

I’m permanently here in the UK and have no intention of ever moving to the USA so there is zero benefit to keeping USC. The yearly compliance was costing me hundreds of pounds and due to FATCA I was blocked from having accounts that I wanted and denied the freedom to invest. As the OAP said there are many things which are double taxed eg the UK taxes you on the purchase of your home and the USA on the sale. I don’t know if you’ve heard of GILTI? The list goes on and on. I don’t appreciate the huge constitutional violation of reporting my bank balances via FBAR either. I echo what the OAP said about PFIC etc. So many traps. I can’t live my life with that sort of uncertainty and fear, and the chance of even worse treatment like we saw with the transition tax in 2017.

You might skirt the FATCA issues by saving in your partner’s name and making sure your own are very simple accounts, but if you choose to come into compliance and live long term in the UK it is likely that your problems could compound over time, especially if you become successful. In the end I refused to remain in a situation where I’m always looking over my shoulder and twisting myself into knots to try to follow the byzantine foreign tax rules of a country I’ve nothing to do with.


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2019, 06:27:08 AM »
Hi,

I just wondered how the OP got on in the end?
I'm in a not dissimilar position, just ten years older. As per theOAP's comments, I think I will probably now renounce and not file any tax returns.
Renouncing feels like the right thing to do now (committed to the UK), but I can't afford the time or money required to file with the IRS.

Best wishes.


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2019, 08:07:02 AM »
Hi,

I just wondered how the OP got on in the end?
I'm in a not dissimilar position, just ten years older. As per theOAP's comments, I think I will probably now renounce and not file any tax returns.
Renouncing feels like the right thing to do now (committed to the UK), but I can't afford the time or money required to file with the IRS.

Best wishes.
in addition to the SFOP announced in June 2014 we now have the Relief Procedures for Certain Former Citizens announced in September 2018. These might suit your circumstances: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/relief-procedures-for-certain-former-citizens


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2019, 11:14:21 AM »
noZenHere, based on 3 years of research and contact with other duals and accidentals, I personally don’t think that you will be contacted by the IRS based on HSBC or your mortgage provider knowing you’re a dual citizen. AFAIK there has not been one single case of this happening.
  I am a USC who banks with HSBC and also has my mortgage with them.  I've always told them I was American and recently they started to send me emails and messages asking for more information.  Finally, they asked me to fill in a form W-9, which is an IRS form and I can only assume went straight to the IRS.   Not only was I terrified that if I filled in this form while not having done my FATCAS , the IRS could easily put two and two together, but also thought it likely that HSBC would either close my account or even freeze it.   My solution was to get all my taxes and reporting up to date, complete the form for HSBC and I haven't heard anything more from them on the matter. 


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2019, 12:19:30 PM »
in addition to the SFOP announced in June 2014 we now have the Relief Procedures for Certain Former Citizens announced in September 2018. These might suit your circumstances: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/relief-procedures-for-certain-former-citizens [nofollow]

Well that's an easy read...it still looks like something likely to require the services of an expensive accountant and countless hours of my time?
In particular I've (mistakenly I now realise) held a S&S ISA in recent years, and a peer2peer ISA. This (and other accounts?) still requires FBAR filing despite this procedure? Thanks for bringing it to my attention anyway, I'd not seen it.

I'm moved to action since my S&S ISA provider has raised a FATCA query with me owing to my place of birth (US), which I left in 1981...now married to a proper Brit, two kids without USC. Net worth comfortable but very comfortably under $2,000,000 ...!

Thanks in advance for any useful advice, which I realise is perhaps only worth precisely what I am paying for it...


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2019, 12:21:34 PM »
  I am a USC who banks with HSBC and also has my mortgage with them.  I've always told them I was American and recently they started to send me emails and messages asking for more information.  Finally, they asked me to fill in a form W-9, which is an IRS form and I can only assume went straight to the IRS.   Not only was I terrified that if I filled in this form while not having done my FATCAS , the IRS could easily put two and two together, but also thought it likely that HSBC would either close my account or even freeze it.   My solution was to get all my taxes and reporting up to date, complete the form for HSBC and I haven't heard anything more from them on the matter.

And broadly how painful was that process for you? Might I ask?


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Re: Accidental american starting to file tax
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2019, 12:35:28 PM »
And broadly how painful was that process for you? Might I ask?
It was very expensive.  I didn't have to pay any money in taxes or fees, but the payments to the tax professionals who sorted it for me were high because my case was complicated.   

By the way, I'm not offering advice or advocating that what I did is best for you.  There are people on this forum quailified to give advice and I am not one of them. 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 12:38:10 PM by jimbocz »


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