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Topic: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax  (Read 962 times)

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Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« on: May 21, 2019, 12:32:30 PM »
Hi,  I am a dual US/U.K.  citizen.  I am married to a U.K. citizen.  I have lived in the U.K. for over 40 years and have no US assets, bank accounts or investments.  My husband and I did a joint Will in the U.K. (I own my U.K. house and a U.K. holiday home, and my husband owns a U.K. house.)

What , if anything, do I need to do to avoid double taxation on assets I wish to leave to my children? Where can I go for advice.  The U.K. lawyer who drafted our Will did not have this knowledge.

Thanks for any advice and recommendations.  By the way, I’m not wealthy and many advisers seem to target only high net worth people.

Penny Hill


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2019, 12:52:16 PM »
Currently a USC has the first $11M free of estate tax so I shouldn’t worry too much unless  this a limit you think you may surpass.( We are in a similar situation).

Hopefully someone will be along soon to point you to the UK US Estate Tax agreement
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2019, 01:46:47 PM »
Currently a USC has the first $11M free of estate tax so I shouldn’t worry too much unless  this a limit you think you may surpass.( We are in a similar situation).

Durhamlad, I had no idea you guys were so comfortable.  I like how you keep it humble.  :)
9/1/2013 - "fiancée" (marriage) visa issued
4/6/2013 - married (certificate issued same-day)
5/6/2013 - FLR(M)#1 in person -- approved!
8/1/2016 - FLR(M)#2 by post -- approved!
8/5/2018 - ILR in person -- approved!
22/11/2018 - Citizenship (online, with NDRS+JCAP) -- approved!
14/12/2018 - I became a British citizen.  :)


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 01:49:03 PM »
Durhamlad, I had no idea you guys were so comfortable.  I like how you keep it humble.  :)

 :D :D

I wish!!
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2019, 08:35:14 AM »
Well, if it’s $11 million we have nothing to worry about.  It would be good to see the U.K./US estate tax agreement.


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2019, 08:48:01 AM »
Out of curiosity, are your kids USC only or are they dual? (I'm assuming dual but don't want to make assumptions)  Asking as I was thinking about "less than legal" options if it came down to it (though it sounds like it's all covered if the $11m thing is still in place by the point your kids need to worry about this - which is hopefully a very long time away!)
My, how time flies....

* Married in the US and applied for first spousal visa August 2013
* Moved to the UK on said visa October 2013
* FLR(M) applied for  May 2016. Biometrics requested June 2016. Approval given July 2016.
* ILR applied for January 2019 (using priority processing). Approved February 2019.
* Citizenship applied for May  2019
* Citizenship approved on July 4th 2019
* Ceremony conducted on August 28th 2019

'Mommy, Wow! I'm a legit Brit now!'


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2019, 08:57:42 AM »
Well, if it’s $11 million we have nothing to worry about.  It would be good to see the U.K./US estate tax agreement.

Try this

http://uniset.ca/misc/us-uk1980.html

Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2019, 10:15:13 AM »
Asking as I was thinking about "less than legal" options if it came down to it......

I like your thinking!

IHT tax free amounts in the UK can range from £325,000 to £1,000,000, so by US terms, a very low threshold. If I understand the treaty correctly, any IHT tax paid to the UK can be offset on a US return if the deceased is a UKC or deemed resident for UK IHT (17 years resident?), so there appears to be no problem with US tax due for us average folk. But, as I see it, problems can arise if there is an NRA spouse.

Upon the death of a USC there would 2 IRS returns due - the final year and an estate return. Like the US, in the UK the assets can be transferred to the surviving spouse tax free if the will is so structured, along with their tax free allowance. The problem, especially with an NRA spouse, is the time required to close the estate (probate).

For example, if there is a home, and that home is in London, there is the possibility of cap gains. When are the cap gains declared? On the final tax return of the deceased? On the estate return? Or, is there a third return when the NRA spouse dies (unlikely?)? And, under UK IHT rules and the transfer of assets, does the IRS need to know about this?

If, during probate, it is known the deceased was a USC, would the executor use a UK tax advisor to sort this out? If so, the tax advisor is required by UK codes of practice to settle all tax estate matters worldwide - including the IRS. If the executor is a solicitor, are they bound by similar codes of practice? If the executor is a friend or family, they are bound by the rules of probate, but they may be less than forthcoming. Assuming IHT is handled like normal US returns, there is no credit or assets below a threshold until a return is filed.

Then there are US assets. If the USC has US Social Security, the SSA needs to be notified. It may well be advantageous for the surviving NRA spouse to be sure to do this since their benefit may increase substantially. Does the SSA, or the London Embassy, notify the IRS of the death? If the US Embassy is involved, would they almost certainly notify all US agencies including the IRS? For those with other US assets (homes, bank accounts, pensions) notification of the death will be required. According to the website, the US Embassy (Department of State ?) needs to issue verified US acceptable death certificates (they'll do 20) to be sent to US entities.

How long does all the cross filing within probate take if IRS rules come into play? It's for this reason a substantial joint bank account with the NRA spouse might be desirable - they may need funds for at least 18 months to survive while assets are tied up in probate due to sorting the US side.

Of course, US IHT thresholds have a way of going both up and down, at any time, and often retroactively. Add in variable exchange rates....

So many unknowns for us average folk without a structured will that includes all these possibilities.





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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2019, 10:22:54 AM »
In fairness, I wasn't taking into consideration that the solicitor would already apply the necessary US & UK taxes to the inheritance prior to the "pay out" if I'm honest lol I was more thinking (like with normal taxes) where you're meant to file/report etc. but what would happen if you just didn't? Like if the kids are dual citizens with no intention of returning back to the US, could you get away with just not reporting? (though I definitely wasn't going to advise anybody to do anything like that, more just curious about what would happen if you chose to) But, as mentioned, I totally didn't actually think about the fact that it would likely be done automatically...
My, how time flies....

* Married in the US and applied for first spousal visa August 2013
* Moved to the UK on said visa October 2013
* FLR(M) applied for  May 2016. Biometrics requested June 2016. Approval given July 2016.
* ILR applied for January 2019 (using priority processing). Approved February 2019.
* Citizenship applied for May  2019
* Citizenship approved on July 4th 2019
* Ceremony conducted on August 28th 2019

'Mommy, Wow! I'm a legit Brit now!'


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2019, 10:42:48 AM »
In fairness, I wasn't taking into consideration that the solicitor would already apply the necessary US & UK taxes to the inheritance prior to the "pay out" if I'm honest lol I was more thinking (like with normal taxes) where you're meant to file/report etc. but what would happen if you just didn't? Like if the kids are dual citizens with no intention of returning back to the US, could you get away with just not reporting? (though I definitely wasn't going to advise anybody to do anything like that, more just curious about what would happen if you chose to) But, as mentioned, I totally didn't actually think about the fact that it would likely be done automatically...
No fairness needed, I'm equally perplexed by the whole mess.


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 10:58:34 AM »
No fairness needed, I'm equally perplexed by the whole mess.

I agree..This all just shouldn't be this complicated!
My, how time flies....

* Married in the US and applied for first spousal visa August 2013
* Moved to the UK on said visa October 2013
* FLR(M) applied for  May 2016. Biometrics requested June 2016. Approval given July 2016.
* ILR applied for January 2019 (using priority processing). Approved February 2019.
* Citizenship applied for May  2019
* Citizenship approved on July 4th 2019
* Ceremony conducted on August 28th 2019

'Mommy, Wow! I'm a legit Brit now!'


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Re: Protecting U.K. assets from US inheritance tax
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2019, 02:47:23 PM »
May I offer a few observations on 1Penelope1’s questions and some of the responses?

1Penelope1 is either actually domiciled or under the 15 years of residence rule, deemed domiciled in the UK. Therefore the normal unlimited UK spouse exemption will apply if her husband predeceases her and leaves assets to her.

UK IHT may be payable on assets left to 1Penelope1’s children. But once the IHT returns have been submitted and any IHT paid, her executors/personal representatives can apply for confirmation/probate. They would then have title to the estate. I cannot see why this should be delayed until any US requirements are met. The executors/PRs may wish to wait until any US tax is finalised before distributing assets.

I do not have any detailed knowledge of US rules. However, I think that the US spouse exemption would not be available to 1Penelope1 husband because he is not a US citizen, unless the assets are left in trust for him. Maybe this does not matter because of the level of the US estate tax exemption?

Should 1Penelope1 consider giving up her US citizenship to rid herself of these US tax concerns?

She might want to invest £125 and purchase a copy of a Guide to US/UK Private Wealth Planning. I am sure that Amazon could delver a copy in time for the weekend…




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