Hello
Guest

Sponsored Links


Topic: US UK tax treaty - my head hurts!  (Read 1421 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

  • *
  • Posts: 88

  • Liked: 13
  • Joined: Jan 2016
US UK tax treaty - my head hurts!
« on: September 22, 2019, 02:45:11 PM »
So I've been reading the US-UK tax treaty (2001- I hope this is the most recent), on the IRS website and now I have even more questions than i did before!   Seems like lots of income could be excluded from US taxes under the treaty (US interest, US dividends taxed but with a cap, my husband's US company pension, and our contributions and our employers' contributions to our UK company pensions).  I only went looking for pension info!  Anyway, here are my specific questions, all assume UK residency and paying UK tax on arising basis:

1.  We have been reporting my husband's US ex-employer pension of around $6k a year as income both here on our self assessments  and in the US.  He gets a 1099-G(?) for it, what should we be doing with it on our US taxes?

2.  We report our US stock dividends as income both here and in the US, we get 1099s for those too. Reading the tax treaty the US tax should be limited under the treaty to no more than 15% of the total dividends?  Is this correct and how should we do that?

3.  UK Pensions - Up to now we've reported our contributions to our UK pensions as income  on our US tax returns (ie not reduced our UK gross earnings by the contribution amounts), BUT we haven't reported the employer contributions as income.  So, I believe we need to restate our last 2 years of US tax returns to include the employer contributions as income, or to exclude our contributions and invoke the treaty, so either all contributions are included or excluded, not a mixture of both!  I have read elsewhere on the forum that  we have a choice in this, and if we declare all the contributions as income now then there will be no US tax due when we take distributions?  Is this correct?  Or is it more complex than that,  dependent on residency at that time and type of distribution (lump sum versus ?) ?  To further complicate things, looking forward to 2018,  which we need to file soon, my husband made very large pension contributions as he retired that year.

4.  Reading article 14 of the treaty it seems to say that UK earned income isn't taxable in the US, but this can't be right as i know we're all reporting it and using the FTC or FEIE to offset it, right??

I know a number of responses I've read about US taxes say it's all moot as the FTC generally covers any taxes potentially owed to Uncle Sam, but that was not the case for us in 2017, we ended up with a $2k tax bill! 

I know I need an advisor, have asked for recommendations on here but haven't had any responses so I guess I'll just pick one.  Does anyone know of one in southeast London or Kent/Sussex?

Thanks in advance for any help, I know it's sad that this is how I'm spending my Sunday :-)  Honestly I don't know how regular people are supposed to navigate all of this stuff, between different tax years and no UK joint filing, in addition to all these blooming rules written in legal language! 

Ta.


  • *
  • Posts: 3928

  • Liked: 718
  • Joined: Nov 2012
  • Location: Eee, bah gum.
Re: US UK tax treaty - my head hurts!
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2019, 04:56:25 PM »
Early on the Treaty there is a savings clause that says the US can ignore just about anything they want in the rest of the treaty. As far as my personal tax returns, USC living in England,

1. My US pension is taxed in the UK and US and I claim FTCs to get the UK tax credited on the US return.  My US pension is reported on a 1099-R. A 1099-G is not used to report a US private pension as far as I know.

2. My US stock dividends are all reported and taxed in the UK and US, FTCs used to claim foreign tax credits.

3. I am retired so am not contributing to an employer pension scheme. I am receiving a UK private pension which is taxed in both US and UK and FTCs used.

4. I’m sure you are correct that earned income in UK is either exempted using FEIE in the US or taxed and then FTCs used.

Last year I paid more US tax on my US capital gains and dividends than I paid to HMRC so I ended up with a UK FTC on my self assessment.

I don’t do my own tax returns so can’t speak with any authority, just relating specifics from my own return. Hopefully someone will come along with details.



Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


  • *
  • Posts: 2606

  • Liked: 102
  • Joined: Dec 2005
Re: US UK tax treaty - my head hurts!
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2019, 05:16:29 PM »
So I've been reading the US-UK tax treaty (2001- I hope this is the most recent), on the IRS website and now I have even more questions than i did before!   Seems like lots of income could be excluded from US taxes under the treaty (US interest, US dividends taxed but with a cap, my husband's US company pension, and our contributions and our employers' contributions to our UK company pensions).  I only went looking for pension info!  Anyway, here are my specific questions, all assume UK residency and paying UK tax on arising basis:

1.  We have been reporting my husband's US ex-employer pension of around $6k a year as income both here on our self assessments  and in the US.  He gets a 1099-G(?) for it, what should we be doing with it on our US taxes?

2.  We report our US stock dividends as income both here and in the US, we get 1099s for those too. Reading the tax treaty the US tax should be limited under the treaty to no more than 15% of the total dividends?  Is this correct and how should we do that?

3.  UK Pensions - Up to now we've reported our contributions to our UK pensions as income  on our US tax returns (ie not reduced our UK gross earnings by the contribution amounts), BUT we haven't reported the employer contributions as income.  So, I believe we need to restate our last 2 years of US tax returns to include the employer contributions as income, or to exclude our contributions and invoke the treaty, so either all contributions are included or excluded, not a mixture of both!  I have read elsewhere on the forum that  we have a choice in this, and if we declare all the contributions as income now then there will be no US tax due when we take distributions?  Is this correct?  Or is it more complex than that,  dependent on residency at that time and type of distribution (lump sum versus ?) ?  To further complicate things, looking forward to 2018,  which we need to file soon, my husband made very large pension contributions as he retired that year.

4.  Reading article 14 of the treaty it seems to say that UK earned income isn't taxable in the US, but this can't be right as i know we're all reporting it and using the FTC or FEIE to offset it, right??

I know a number of responses I've read about US taxes say it's all moot as the FTC generally covers any taxes potentially owed to Uncle Sam, but that was not the case for us in 2017, we ended up with a $2k tax bill! 

I know I need an advisor, have asked for recommendations on here but haven't had any responses so I guess I'll just pick one.  Does anyone know of one in southeast London or Kent/Sussex?

Thanks in advance for any help, I know it's sad that this is how I'm spending my Sunday :-)  Honestly I don't know how regular people are supposed to navigate all of this stuff, between different tax years and no UK joint filing, in addition to all these blooming rules written in legal language! 

Ta.
1. Assuming you are US citizens you report worldwide income & gains each year to the IRS. Under Article 24 the US gives credit for UK tax paid to HMRC. 
2. You file a treaty resourced basket IRS Form 1116 if this is of benefit.
3. Your husband has created a foreign grantor trust because of his sizeable contributions. The 2018 Form 3520-A was due to be filed by 15 March 2019. Was this filed on time?
4. The saving clause saves the right of the United States to tax its citizens as if the treaty does not exist.


  • *
  • Posts: 88

  • Liked: 13
  • Joined: Jan 2016
Re: US UK tax treaty - my head hurts!
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2019, 07:48:15 AM »
Thanks Durhamlad and Guya.

Durhamlad, sounds like we are doing same as you on most items, i feel  bit better now.  Yes 1099-R, sorry, typing post from memory which is sometimes faulty :-)
Guya, no we didn't file a dreaded 3520-A , no idea we would need 1 as my understanding was that pensions are specifically excluded?  What are the exact rules WRT whether a foreign grantor trust has been created?  Maybe my idea of a sizeable contribution is different to yours :-)

Still seeking input on declaring UK pension contributions or not as income on US return, and what that means when we take distributions.  I am beginning to think it will be easier to just die before we need to do withdrawals :-)
Ta.


  • *
  • Posts: 3928

  • Liked: 718
  • Joined: Nov 2012
  • Location: Eee, bah gum.
Re: US UK tax treaty - my head hurts!
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2019, 08:23:14 AM »
Thanks Durhamlad and Guya.

Durhamlad, sounds like we are doing same as you on most items, i feel  bit better now.  Yes 1099-R, sorry, typing post from memory which is sometimes faulty :-)
Guya, no we didn't file a dreaded 3520-A , no idea we would need 1 as my understanding was that pensions are specifically excluded?  What are the exact rules WRT whether a foreign grantor trust has been created?  Maybe my idea of a sizeable contribution is different to yours :-)

Still seeking input on declaring UK pension contributions or not as income on US return, and what that means when we take distributions.  I am beginning to think it will be easier to just die before we need to do withdrawals :-)
Ta.

My son is a USC/UKC living and working in the UK.  He uses FEIE to exclude his UK salary, plus he adds in the employer contributions to his pension to his gross salary. (He is still well under the FEIE exclusion limit). I’ve told him never to do more than match his employer contributions to avoid creating a foreign grantor trust, which is advice I’ve seen on this site.

He has no other income so his finances are very simple.
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


Sponsored Links