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Topic: New Brexit stuff  (Read 5331 times)

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New Brexit stuff
« on: October 24, 2019, 08:30:25 PM »
Ok, sooooo.... the TV says that Boris wants a "snap" election on 12 December.
The EU is waiting to hear if there'll be an election before agreeing to an extension. Or not.
Corbyn won't agree to an election unless "no deal" is taken off the table.

What in the world?  So, the purpose of the election would be..... uh, what?  Is Boris sort of throwing the dice and hoping he gets a better mix of supporter MPs than he's got? If he doesn't get as good, then a new government has to be formed?

Is a "snap" election the same as a regular election? So I'd get to vote? (Irish)

If the LibDems got in power they have said they'd cancel Brexit. Is that even possible at this point?

I am SO confused!


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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 09:28:15 PM »
Ok, sooooo.... the TV says that Boris wants a "snap" election on 12 December.
The EU is waiting to hear if there'll be an election before agreeing to an extension. Or not.
Corbyn won't agree to an election unless "no deal" is taken off the table.

What in the world?  So, the purpose of the election would be..... uh, what?  Is Boris sort of throwing the dice and hoping he gets a better mix of supporter MPs than he's got? If he doesn't get as good, then a new government has to be formed?

Is a "snap" election the same as a regular election? So I'd get to vote? (Irish)

If the LibDems got in power they have said they'd cancel Brexit. Is that even possible at this point?

I am SO confused!

The period between elections is a maximum of 5 years, anything sooner than that is called a snap election, but the opposition parties have to agree to an early (aka snap) election


This is the 3rd time Boris has asked parliament for  an election so nothing new here. Purpose is to let the people vote for leave or remain MPs now that they are much more informed about what leaving the EU entails.

There is nothing stop reversing the triggering of article 50, cancelling the decision to leave. The EU has already said that this is within the rules.
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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2019, 12:30:41 AM »
Thanks.

This is just nuts. ::)


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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2019, 08:00:35 AM »

I'm really pleased with the Lib Dem position that they are going to revoke article 50 immediately if elected.  That forces any election to actually become a referendum for real.  People that want no deal can vote for the Brexit party, people that want Boris' deal can vote Tory, and people that want to remain can vote Lib Dem / Green. This is more or less what happened in the European elections and for the most part the Remain supporting parties won. 

In this scenario, article 50 is immediately revoked and we end this national nightmare.  Brexiteers will  have had a fair chance to vote so can't complain about overruling democracy and Labour will be reduced to 4 or 5 MPs as a punishment for uselessness. 


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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2019, 09:11:00 AM »
I'm really pleased with the Lib Dem position that they are going to revoke article 50 immediately if elected.  That forces any election to actually become a referendum for real.

The cynic in me can't help but point out that it would also effectively undo virtually all of the political damage they did to themselves over forming a coalition government with the Tories, enabling austerity and the dreaded tuition fees.*  Don't get me wrong... I love what the Lib Dems stand for, at least in theory.  If they were a real party, they'd be the party for me.  But they have shown not only a lack of conviction, but an apparent eagerness to bend over backwards for the Conservatives in the past.

* This was, admittedly, all before my time.  But I'm here now, and the legacy of their actions are our reality today.  But perhaps they really would immediately undo Article 50, and the country can start to mend itself, and the EU will be all, "Oh, hey... that was something, wasn't it?" and then we'll all go back to how things were (with, perhaps, now a better deal than what the EU previously told Cameron was the best he was going to get, so shut up and take it).
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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2019, 10:20:35 AM »
I suspect there's been a lot of damage done that won't be undoable, or at least it will take decades, even if they revoke. I believe that I get to vote (as Irish) so I will definitely do so if that's an option.  For what good it will do.



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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2019, 11:04:50 AM »
I believe that I get to vote (as Irish) so I will definitely do so if that's an option.  For what good it will do.

Yes, you can vote as Irish but you need to register first if you haven't already. There is still time, you have until the 26th November.

https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote


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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2019, 05:58:48 AM »
Someone sent me this LOL..... [smiley=laugh3.gif] [smiley=laugh4.gif] [smiley=laugh4.gif]



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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2020, 03:17:21 AM »
Ok, so back to Brexit.

All three devolved governments have now voted to reject Boris's Brexit Bill. Only the English government has approved it. Apparently that would normally mean it should wither and die. However, apparently the English government has said they are going to go ahead with it all anyway, regardless of the wishes of the other countries. [Insert raised eyebrow here.]

So I'm not clear what their rejecting it really means. NI and Scotland voted to remain in the first place, and now Wales has switched sides.  Or is it just the terms of the agreement Wales doesn't like? SO if not that one, in a week the UK would crash out, so.... I give up.

Yeah, I'm kinda glad we're not going to be here to see the UK break up, when it happens. There's only so many times that the one country can run roughshod over the wishes of the other three, I would think. :o  It'll be sad.


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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2020, 10:55:09 AM »
...
Yeah, I'm kinda glad we're not going to be here to see the UK break up, when it happens. There's only so many times that the one country can run roughshod over the wishes of the other three, I would think. :o  It'll be sad.

Yeah, but to be fair, you're going to Trump's America.  I'm not sure which is the rockier future.
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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2020, 01:49:27 PM »
Sadly, I think Trump's America has more innate resilience built in.


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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2020, 04:27:20 PM »
Nan, what don't you get about UK democracy?  The UK is a single country with 4 "States", the largest of which is England with 85% of the population of the UK and so 85% of the MPs are from England.  The US has a similar arrangement where the more populated States have more members in the House of Representatives.

US States often disagree strongly with decisions and policies of the central government but have to abide by the decisions of those central government politicians, who were elected by the country as a whole.
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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 09:24:08 AM »
Durhamlad, while I agree with your overall position, I must clarify the structure of the US's legislature.  Yes, the House of Representatives is proportional representation, similar to Parliament, but nothing comes out of Congress without both houses agreeing to it, and the Senate is apportioned equally--two Senators per state.  This was a compromise struck by the founding fathers to settle the debate about how to avoid larger states running roughshod over smaller states.  Unlike the UK's House of Lords, the US Senate is a meaningful body of elected officials serving limited terms at the pleasure of the people.  Theoretically, anyway.
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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2020, 11:24:33 AM »
Democratic. Um, right. ;)

So what I see is England, with the majority of the population, running roughshod over the wishes of the other three nations. The term "country" is, of course, debatable, so I'll refer to them as "nations" as that implies more of a cultural than political divide. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-scotland-a-country.html

Scotland is apparently being held in the "United" coalition against its will (or that of a very large proportion of the people in it). Despite the BBC calling it "North Britain" in an effort to assimilate the Scots, it's culturally not English and a substantial number of the residents here do not appear to appreciate the years of discrimination they have faced. From what I have encountered, they do remember the clearances and English landowners and all that history, and of being dictated to by a cultural entity of which they are not a part. They became part of the UK not by the direct will of their own people, but by the political maneuverings of a handful of aristocracy who would benefit from the arrangement. (I doubt anyone asked the locals what they wanted, at the time. ;)  ) At present, a substantial majority of the people of the nation have said they do not want to Brexit at all, and are being ignored.

Northern Ireland is an occupied province, really, although the troops were withdrawn after the Good Friday agreement. NI was held as part of the British Empire, and when the Republic was able to break free, due to the number of English persons who were transplanted into the North who didn't wish to sever their privileged position in that state - and some really excellent treaty negotiators - it remained part of the Empire. The Troubles were all about the abuses that came along with a British minority being in governmental and social control over the larger indigenous population that is not culturally British. Even so, they are now a devolved government (since Stormont is apparently functioning again) and they have made their position clear - they do not support the Brexit deal.

Wales I'm not familiar enough with to discuss, other than it has its devolved government and that points to it also being a nation of its own. I believe it's actually a principality of England, having been absorbed after being conquered by force by the English. Culturally they certainly are not English, aside from the English who have bought property and settled there. They have said they do not support the Brexit legislation.

So, four culturally differing nations tied together. And one state dictates to the other three. That's not democratic, really. It's still English rule. If it was democratic, the people in each nation would vote, and then their representatives would each have an equal voice (four voices). One nation could not dictate to the others, it would have to negotiate with them as equals.

From what I can see (and I agree that my interaction with "the locals" is limited, even with observing the press, etc.), the three non-English nations generally seem to see themselves as nations in a coalition of nations. The English seem to see them as part of England and one big happy family, so whatever the English majority decide is just peachy for everyone. It's a tad delusional, from some angles.  ;) But understandable, because it must be uncomfortable to look at it from the other direction, if one was culturally English and a decent soul.

Either way, I've got no horse in this race. But it will be sad to watch what happens here for the next few decades (assuming I'm still breathing and coherent enough to do so).  :(


 [LATE EDIT to add this from RTE, which sums it up better than I do. https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/0122/1110078-brexit-devolution/ ]
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 06:34:02 PM by Nan D. »


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Re: New Brexit stuff
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 01:11:26 PM »
Durhamlad, while I agree with your overall position, I must clarify the structure of the US's legislature.  Yes, the House of Representatives is proportional representation, similar to Parliament, but nothing comes out of Congress without both houses agreeing to it, and the Senate is apportioned equally--two Senators per state.  This was a compromise struck by the founding fathers to settle the debate about how to avoid larger states running roughshod over smaller states.  Unlike the UK's House of Lords, the US Senate is a meaningful body of elected officials serving limited terms at the pleasure of the people.  Theoretically, anyway.

Thanks, and I will clarify further that the compromise struck by the founding fathers that the Senators were appointed for life, not elected, so that they could be more deliberative and not be overly influenced by having to get re-elected.  It wasn't until the 20th century that changes were made to the Constitution to make them elected officials with unlimited 6-year terms of office. The Senate is far more influenced by money these days than the Founders intended because they need copious amounts of it to get re-elected. I think the Senate should be an elected body with either a single term or at most 2 terms so they may become less concerned with personal self interest in perpetuating their stay in office.

I totally agree with your comments regarding the House of Lords which needs abolishing and replaced with something totally different.  Currently only appointed life peers (mostly) can vote but there are no limits on the numbers of them and they are appointed by the government of the day. Useless.

 
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