My Five Frustrations so far

I've been here 8 months - not long - but it has been very unstable/unsettled so far (moving house 4 times, changing cities, etc).

Man. I am finding certain bits so hard! Just need to vent and hope that SOMEBODY agrees with these feelings!

- WARNING - RAW FEELINGS AHEAD -

1. Emotional Immaturity
Seems like people here about as emotionally mature as a dead cat. I've only felt that I've matured in this area the year previous to moving here- but its made a major difference in my life! I know my feelings now, can name them, can celebrate them and "control" them. I've learned to communicate so much better. But it all seems useless here...people don't have language to talk about the "real" bits of themselves. People don't know how? don't want to? They won't listen, they cut me off, tell me to "chill out", which has never helped anyone chill out! Ever. Bottom line is I think deeply, which can be a gift and a service to others, but people don't know how to interface with that. It leaves me feeling isolated, lonely, and like the "weird foreign guy". And no, I don't just walk into a room, start talking, and go way to deep! I wait for real conversations, share small bits or ask a thoughtful question, and people still are freaked out! Is everyone so emotionally immature that they can't even listen to such things? It makes me feel rejected and pull more into myself.

2. No one to process with
I am an external processor; I do my best thinking aloud. It helps me not worry, not be anxious, get my thoughts out into the air, and only pick the ones that are true and helpful to take in. When I don't have the chance to think aloud, I definitely become an overthinker and a worrier. Having no one to share with makes me angry with the culture, makes me more judgmental of it. It keeps me distant instead of leaning in.

3. Crappy Cultural Guides
I don't know how to learn about a culture other than 1. watching it and 2. asking questions about what you see. Problem is people don't answer the questions. I'm not talking "Why do you like tea", but more the social interactions: "I noticed you said ______ but did ____ instead. can you help me understand that?" I WANT to learn about this place! I DO think its interesting! I DO think its a cool culture! But Scots are seemingly such a "nation of losers" (not an insult, just in contrast to the American Dream mindset) that they can't answer Q's about their own culture! So I am left just observing the culture, getting rejected when I ask questions, being left to judge for myself what a particular interaction meant or represented. I invariably get that judgment wrong, butcher my next social interaction, don't get any clarification, and just want to pull more and more inward. I just can't fathom a culture that refuses to talk about its own culture. It's downplayed so much - why? Why isn't culture considered a bigger factor? Why does nobody realise that I am not a native and that things wont come easily to me? It doesn't matter if I speak English....we live different lives. Man, I wish somebody would just come alongside and help me understand! it would be such a game changer for me and my sociologist brain. I feel like such a dunce without it.

4.Passivity
OK, I recognise this one is probably the least true out of all of these; again this is just how I feel. I come from New England, land of "say what you mean and mean what you say", and I find polite British society so fake! It feels so disingenuous and artificial...even more than the South in America does to me (ok, I am a real Yankee, a proper Mainer and avid unionist haha). Anyway, I'm amazed by the display of bravado from most men who are actually too afraid to say how they feel. They play tough guy but when something hard needs to be said, or a tough decision needs to be made, they wimp out. I find that so hard, because thats not what ive been taught a mature man looks like! I am not saying he needs to be domineering or chauvinistic, but at least men and women would hopefully have the courage to speak their mind. Nobody takes the helm in decisions or conversations, and I feel like sometimes I spend an hour waiting for some decision to be made...Please, somebody, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

5. Hospitality
I guess this is sum of the others, but people have 1. not introduced themselves to me 2. not made any effort to acknowledge me as the "new guy" 3. not offer any help on how to do my new job well, but gladly come yelling when Ive done it wrong 4. not help me meet other new people.


OK, rant over. I am not even going to go back and edit that. It was cathartic just to type. I know its not all right, not all helpful, not all kind, but let me say - I am grateful for the folks I have met (just a couple really) who have made efforts in these areas and acknowledged, yes, it is hard to move overseas. Scotland is a beautiful place and I look forward to making it home with my fiancé (Who struggles with a lot of these same things, and I KNOW she loves me- which helps me see, these are first cultural issues, not personal ones).

PLEASE feel free to give some advice. I have received none. I don't know how to learn about the culture, I feel like im at a dead end. Just please note that I am intentionally getting my all my feelings out, and on an average day I probably don't feel this strongly or judgmental about any of these things. I know, in fact, that I have expressed some of the same feelings here that I am complaining about.

Thanks to this community that has welcomed me and helped me. I love you UK and hope you can stomach my strong wording

Feel free to rant .

Sorry you’ve been finding some things hard. I’m British and have lived in the US twice and some of the frustrations you’re feeling are things I also experienced in the US... so it may well be that they aren’t specific to British people but more to the realities of being a foreigner in a new country and trying to get to grips with how society works in a new environment.

In regards to being able to understand why things are done the way they are, I’d recommend reading the book, ‘Watching the English’ by Kate Fox. It’s about the ‘hidden rules of English behaviour’ and even though I am English myself, I found it a fascinating read and learned stuff about my culture that I wasn’t even aware of.


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You are totally allowed to feel the way you feel. British passive aggressiveness is very real. It takes a lot of time to build up real, genuine friendships here but it will happen.

What brought you to the UK? 

Only thing that surprises me a bit is that Scotland is perceived to be very friendly in comparison to the rest of the UK.   

Thanks for writing that!  I love to read those primal rants and this is exactly the right place for them.  The whole time I was reading it I was thinking "Watching the English" but it looks like Ksand has beaten me to it.  I second the recommendation. 

I'd also recommend doing some research into culture shock.  I  posted some info about it from a book I found particularly helpful a while back.  Learning about culture shock will help you understand a lot of the feelings you are having. 

Feel free to rant .

Sorry you’ve been finding some things hard. I’m British and have lived in the US twice and some of the frustrations you’re feeling are things I also experienced in the US... so it may well be that they aren’t specific to British people but more to the realities of being a foreigner in a new country and trying to get to grips with how society works in a new environment.

In regards to being able to understand why things are done the way they are, I’d recommend reading the book, ‘Watching the English’ by Kate Fox. It’s about the ‘hidden rules of English behaviour’ and even though I am English myself, I found it a fascinating read and learned stuff about my culture that I wasn’t even aware of.


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I think Ksand's response is perfect (all of it - especially about the part where it may he more to do with being a foreigner adapting to a new home )

I am sorry you're  struggling and i think the last few months in particular probably have not helped at all in some regards (though i so think it has helped with showing the kindness in others as well as brought mental health more to the forefront so there are some positives).  While we may not agree or have shared those experiences, your experiences and feelings are very much valid and this is exactly the right place to share them and get your frustrations vented out. I just hope that things improve before summer is over as i really think that's when the UK comes alive and it would be nice for you to be able to see that side too. Also from New England so can appreciate the lack of people calling things as they see it but i don't think that is to due with being fake as much as it is to try to be as non-offensive as possible and to not cause and issues as it's very much an apologetic culture in comparison where people don't want to put others out (from my experiences, anyways). But i can see how it could come across in other ways.

I do agree with KF that it's surprising you're in Scotland as that is notorious for being much more open and friendly than locations as you move further south in the UK hah

What i will say is that i think the emotional immaturity isn't necessarily "immaturity" s much as it's the whole "keeping a stuff upper lip" and being more reserved with sharing emotions than places like the US where it can sometimes lean a little too far in the other direction. Not trying to take away from your feelings or experiences at all, just mentioning more so to give you the other side of the coin.

I honestly do hope things improve for you! Is there any expat groups local to you that upy could join for more location-speciifc tips and support?

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I'm also from New England originally but have lived in Scotland for over 12 years.   

Maybe I can help you interpret the culture? What would you like to know?

What part of Scotland do you live in?   Just wondering, if you grew up in Maine and now live in the central belt, it might be due to city living? 

The reason I ask that, is that I haven't struggled in Scotland too much, but I moved from New England to South Florida and I lived there for 6 years, and that was pretty hard going. I really struggled to make friends there, and I think there were a lot of factors to that. One major was a lot to do with culture and how everything in South Florida was about looks and shopping and image and just too many people everywhere. I'm from a small town blue collar in Central-Western Massachusetts and grew up 4-H. Going to South Florida was hella culture shock. Moving to the rural Scottish Highlands was so much better suited to me. 

Hi and welcome!
Whereabouts in Scotland are you?

Sorry to hear you are having a rough time... but it's early days and after you've been here for a while, it might feel easier.

I'm a Californian who has lived in Scotland for more than half my life -- 30+ years-- and I think, based on your 'rant' (which was totally justified, if you're struggling), I would find you exhausting.  I'm sorry ,i know that sounds harsh, but omg, i could just not cope with someone that was always trying to make me talk about my feelings, and constantly questioning/judging, and analysing the crap out of everything. 

When i first came here i was too young and stupid to know anything about the culture, and i certainly would not have been able to sensibly answer anyone who asked questions about my own native culture!   I was just here... i just 'lived', and grew and adapted and absorbed and probably unwittingly observed from a distance.   

8 months is early days... i hope it will get easier for you as time goes on.  Just remember, it's not wrong here... it's just different.    

What brought you to the UK? 

I work for a church planting organisation (probably made things harder as well - I come from an incredibly loving, thoughtful, authentic Christian background, whereas my Christian brothers and Sisters here are some of the most difficult people I've met!).

I’d recommend reading the book, ‘Watching the English’ by Kate Fox. It’s about the ‘hidden rules of English behaviour’ and even though I am English myself, I found it a fascinating read and learned stuff about my culture that I wasn’t even aware of.

Thank you! So helpful to be directed toward something like this. I will assume it works well enough for the Scots as well.

I'd also recommend doing some research into culture shock.  I  posted some info about it from a book I found particularly helpful a while back.  Learning about culture shock will help you understand a lot of the feelings you are having. 

Would love any resources in this area that you might have scrounged up in the past, or let me know which way to google!

Also from New England so can appreciate the lack of people calling things as they see it but i don't think that is to due with being fake as much as it is to try to be as non-offensive as possible and to not cause and issues as it's very much an apologetic culture in comparison where people don't want to put others out (from my experiences, anyways). But i can see how it could come across in other ways.

What i will say is that i think the emotional immaturity isn't necessarily "immaturity" s much as it's the whole "keeping a stuff upper lip" and being more reserved with sharing emotions than places like the US where it can sometimes lean a little too far in the other direction. Not trying to take away from your feelings or experiences at all, just mentioning more so to give you the other side of the coin.

I honestly do hope things improve for you! Is there any expat groups local to you that upy could join for more location-speciifc tips and support?

Helpful to hear the idea of "non offensiveness". That is the positive take on the issue I have been looking for. I also agree we go to far in the States (heck, I struggle to have conversations with southerners), but guess I have been taken on a personal journey with my emotional health that has made it a primary way of thought in my life, and it hurts that it feels neglected!

I'm also from New England originally but have lived in Scotland for over 12 years.   

Maybe I can help you interpret the culture? What would you like to know?

What part of Scotland do you live in?   Just wondering, if you grew up in Maine and now live in the central belt, it might be due to city living? 

Thanks Phatbeetle, I'll PM you and share a bit more!

Hi and welcome!
Whereabouts in Scotland are you?
 I would find you exhausting.  I'm sorry ,i know that sounds harsh, but omg, i could just not cope with someone that was always trying to make me talk about my feelings, and constantly questioning/judging, and analysing the crap out of everything. 

I am in Dundee.

I know what you're saying - if how I just "ranted" was how I behaved, it would make sense for me to not get along with anyone. Maybe it's helpful for me to clarify that I am an analyser - that is, I think about lots, have lots of "social" sensors, and thats not something I turn on or off. That's just how I'm wired. Trust me, I would far prefer to walk through life without noticing the amount of useless detail that I seem to collect, but collect I do. That said, I don't express almost any of this, nor does most of it want to come bubbling out. But it does make the few questions I ask very meaningful to me, because they are the sourced by observing quite a bit of social interaction! I know I sound like a robot, but in reality I might ask one person one question a day. Would that still be overwhelming to folk here?


Thanks all for your replies. To give a little more context here:

Past 8 months have been rough in other ways - the job I was promised in Dundee wasn't ready, so I spent six months at Edinburgh at a different placement in our organisation, and they very clearly didn't need or want me. Because of that, only a few made an effort to get to know me (probably 100 people in our weekly gathering, and by the end of my time there, I still hadn't met 2/3 of them).

There were also some unfortunate and uncontrollable circumstances - a suicide in our community that rocked the boat and made life very difficult for everyone. Unfortunately it was my main bosses family relation. That is obviously not a good time to show up, and I think thats one reason that "The ball was dropped" (as another boss later put it) with me. I can understand that, I am not the centre of the universe, and it's quite appropriate that I became a very low priority and that the rest of the community huddled a bit closer for a while. I can get behind this and struggle a bit if it'll help others. 

The third straining element is I live and work on council estates, whereas my girlfriend (And her social circle) is much more posh. So I was immediately introduced to two very different classes of society in the UK, and they are very different indeed! How I am expected to respond to one groups banter is very different from the other. I do think the council estate I spent the first six months on was particularly brutal and difficult to assimilate with, as in fact, the core of the culture is "We don't want anyone to assimilate". I have not felt that message from the posh circle, but then, I don't live or work there, and it is quite confusing trying to reconcile the two. I DO like my work in the council estates, and personally feel more drawn to them, and the one I work on now is much more welcoming, friendly, a "normal" community, despite its deep issues with drug abuse etc.


Those are my thoughts for now! Thanks for listening and challenging and giving advice . I appreciate it all.

I'm replying as someone who is not neurotypical, and also not happy with living in this country 2.5 years in but I am in England so there are some differences. (Trump and big money in politics have also ruined the US in many ways so I'm not saying the grass is greener, its just the devil you know vs the devil you don't.)

I understand why you want to know more about the culture, but I don't think asking such forward questions will win you friends here. People are very slow to open up, and generally just polite to the point of it being very fake. But over time the people you are meant to be friends with will open up and you'll develop those real bonds. It will not happen overnight! I am here on a marriage visa and if something happened at work or socially that I didn't understand I would quietly ask my husband in private. Or ask other expats because he doesn't always understand why it would be a difference. I haven't found stability in 2.5 years, and thanks to Covid have very little faith that will come in the future. I'm tired of struggling to breathe from pollution and living in a tiny house for significantly more than I would ever pay back home. But at least I have my own tiny bedroom so I actually get sleep, and get to watch things grow in the garden with the hope of some food at the end of summer. Crafts, my cat, and time in the garden are literally the only things keeping me going right now. You have to figure out what works for you if you want to live here permanently. If you have any hobbies I recommend seeking out groups for them, that helps quite a bit!

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Helpful to hear the idea of "non offensiveness". That is the positive take on the issue I have been looking for. I also agree we go to far in the States (heck, I struggle to have conversations with southerners), but guess I have been taken on a personal journey with my emotional health that has made it a primary way of thought in my life, and it hurts that it feels neglected!
.

Something i would just suggest is to keep in mind that many people aren't trying to neglect  you, but it can turn people off (US or UK in my experience) for somebody they don't know very well to speak to them about their personal journey through emltional health or just overall perspnal things in general because of the personal nature. It can make many people feel uncomfortable to get too personal too quick (i have found this to be true in more countries than just the UK), so wondering if a bit of that might be happening? I'm not saying nobody will care or everybody will be turned off, just that it can make a majority feel uncomfortable (outside of being there for a stranger who is really struggling with mental health/suicidal as potentially an exception).

Are there any faith-based online groups you could look to join for additional support? Not religious myself so I am not able to recommend any personally, but maybe somebody here may be able to as you might find additional comfort there?


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Maybe it's helpful for me to clarify that I am an analyser - that is, I think about lots, have lots of "social" sensors, and thats not something I turn on or off. That's just how I'm wired.

I get it... that's just the way you are.  Must make things very difficult for you.
Your line of work will be a bit more challenging as well, cos i think it's a more secular society here.  But i hope that it will make any small victories you do have feel that much more rewarding.

It can make many people feel uncomfortable to get too personal too quick (i have found this to be true in more countries than just the UK), so wondering if a bit of that might be happening? I'm not saying nobody will care or everybody will be turned off, just that it can make a majority feel uncomfortable (outside of being there for a stranger who is really struggling with mental health/suicidal as potentially an exception).

Are there any faith-based online groups you could look to join for additional support? Not religious myself so I am not able to recommend any personally, but maybe somebody here may be able to as you might find additional comfort there?

I certainly do press in more than the average person, but again, that has to do with my faith. I started typing a good bit about that, but don't want to proselytise. Simply put, however, authentic christians will admit they are messed up people, and share that with others. So I am learning how to interface with a new Christian culture, that is no better or worse than the US, but that does not (publicly) claim to be messed up.

The issue with your latter question (which you've already conceded isn't your area of expertise, thank you for the desire to help) is simply that a local church is  by design meant to meet these needs- community, spiritual health, wellbeing in other ways. I think I am one of the lucky few in the US who felt a real FREEDOM at my old church. That is, my hurts, hangups, struggles - I experienced so much healing because of what I believed, and how the people around me reflected that same belief to encourage and uplift me. The church in the UK is struggling quite a bit, and I am just learning, that's not what I should expect here! Hopefully I can be part of the solution.

I have found the responses to this post to be really helpful and healing, just to know someone listens, even if they disagree. The gentle rebukes here are helpful and thought provoking, and I'm definitely encouraged to keep engaging here.

In the meantime, Watching the English has been ordered!

I have hope that some day, I'll be able to help some other newly immigrated American to adjust a bit better.

I get it... that's just the way you are.  Must make things very difficult for you.
Your line of work will be a bit more challenging as well, cos i think it's a more secular society here.  But i hope that it will make any small victories you do have feel that much more rewarding.

Don't get me wrong...I drive myself mad as well

Thanks for the encouragement. Christian faith has always been about seemingly very small victories, things that don't look very impressive in the world, so thank you for (unknowingly) affirming something dear to me!

Hope I haven't come across preachy or anything. Don't mean to stick my views in anyone's face, but figure it is appropriate since I started the post! Let me know if anyone has questions about why on earth I would move to work with a church in the UK 

 Simply put, however, authentic christians will admit they are messed up people, and share that with others. So I am learning how to interface with a new Christian culture, that is no better or worse than the US, but that does not (publicly) claim to be messed up.

While I am not currently religious, I was brought up in a Christian (Catholic) household and have never found this to be the case at all, but I'm wondering if maybe it's different depending on the branch of Christianity? Also, i definitely don't want to discuss religion, personally, as I've been raised religion and politics are definitely things to avoid discussing, just offering that maybe this isn't the blanket case across all of Christianity? Though i would have expected within the same church organisations, you'd have similarities so maybe not! Just a thought.

 
The issue with your latter question (which you've already conceded isn't your area of expertise, thank you for the desire to help) is simply that a local church is  by design meant to meet these needs- community, spiritual health, wellbeing in other ways. I think I am one of the lucky few in the US who felt a real FREEDOM at my old church. That is, my hurts, hangups, struggles - I experienced so much healing because of what I believed, and how the people around me reflected that same belief to encourage and uplift me. The church in the UK is struggling quite a bit, and I am just learning, that's not what I should expect here! Hopefully I can be part of the solution.

Just to clarify, my suggestion was more to help supplement your current church community vs. replace (especially if it doesn't have the community you are used to sharing in). While it's unfortunate that you aren't getting what you expect from this community, the only thing within your control here is to try to seek out a community that can offer what you're looking for (virtually just now) while maybe doing what you can to improve the current atmosphere once COVID restrictions are lifted (we can only do what is within our power to do).


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I guess you are finding out that for the most part, British people loathe people who are overtly religious.  Tony Blair was openly religious and it gave everyone on both sides  of the political aisle a reason to dislike him intensely.  And then when he pretty much came out and said God told him to kill all those Iraqis he was judged as harshly as he deserved. 
I'm sure you are a nice guy and this isn't an attack on you because I don't know what you do from a religious point of view, but I've always thought that British people's absolute intolerance for religious zealotry is one of their best qualities.   In the words of Gordan Brown "We don't do God." 
I'd imagine that a  level of religous fervor that would seem to be quite mild in the states would be waaay over the top here.  Maybe that's part of the reason you are having trouble relating to people. 

And in Scotland (particularly Glasgow, but you see it everywhere) Catholics versus Protestants is still very much a heavy thing.