Better to start family in UK or US?

Shandy, I think you've got me. I just don't like the idea of calling it a tax. Just because I am thinking of this sort of conversation:

Nick Clegg: "....and therefore, regrettably, we will be supporting the establishment of university fees."
Mum in audience: "But my Herbert will be shackled with debt for decades, maybe forever!"
NC: "Well think of it as sort of a tax really."
Mum: "But all that is is..."
NC: "So sorry, must be off to a meeting. Thank you all for attending. You've been a great audience."

I don't know.

 

I'm lost.  Does that mean that the cost of university is a smoke screen and that the student isn't obligated to repay the loan?

I'm actually an advocate that student loan debt is not dischargeable in the US, as it's an intangible asset.  But I do think the student should be required to meet with an advisor before the loan is granted showing the full cost of their loan, their potential earning power of their degree program, what the repayments will look like, etc.  and I think there should just be less pressure overall to go straight to university from high school.  It's not for everyone and often students don't figure that out until they are a couple of years in.

I think there should just be less pressure overall to go straight to university from high school.  It's not for everyone and often students don't figure that out until they are a couple of years in.

Absolutely. My youngest sister went to 1 very expensive Uni for a year and hated it, went to another for another degree programme and hated it, went to another for another programme and hated it and basically flunked out. Three years of expensive schooling, absolutely nothing close to a degree and both she and my parents have mountains and mountains of school loan debt.  She's landed on her feet with a stable state job without that degree, so she would have been so much better off not wasting her time and money in the first place!

Valid points. But let's remember that society as a whole benefits from having a well educated population. It is the real reason behind public education, not because little Timmy and Sarah "deserve" literacy. If they are left uneducated - and by that I mean without "hard skills" like mathematics and literacy, but also reasoning skills gained through analysis and subjects like science and algebra - then they will not be able to reach full societal productivity. Fine perhaps when farming was the occupation of 80% of the population, but not so much today. And remember that in a democracy, Timmy and Sarah grow up to vote. Do we want people in there pulling switches without any concept of things like the scientific method or even what democracy itself means?

So where does this stop? When they reach the 9's multiplication table? When they can stumble through Dick and Jane's Big Day Out?

We also must consider that today's Bachelor degree is valued much as a high school diploma was several decades ago.

We need ten times the education today, not less.

Sometimes I despair.

As a species we have either been granted or through genetic lottery developed something that as far as we know has never occurred in the 13 something billion year existence of the universe or out there in the unfathomably large cosmos – rationality. We can think, reason, remember and imagine; we know how to solve problems.  Not just solve problems, but know the process of cause and effect, and can pass on knowledge to other people.

These qualities (until we find evidence of intelligent extra terrestrial life) are unbelievably, unimaginably rare and are the essence of humanity. We are sh*tty fighters, not particularly good runners and ill-suited to our climates. We process food poorly, our eyesight sucks, and we seem particularly vulnerable to pests and disease. We begin to die after three days without water. Our minds are what are important – the thing that makes us special in a way that is impossible to fully explain.

And we still clash over education.

It is said that if you could transport a person from medieval times to our modern era, they would hardly be able to conceive of the changes in human existence, but that if you took him/her into a classroom they would see almost exactly what they knew from his/her medieval life – an adult scratching stuff on a slate in front of a group of youths. We found a way to fly people to the Costa Del Sol, but we can't improve on a guy in front of a group of kids scratching sh*t on a piece of slate – like a caveman drawing a horse in a cavern by torchlight. Why do we think so little of ourselves?

Outside of faster than light travel, massive asteroid collision, the sun burning out and perhaps immortality, there are no problems we can't easily solve within a short time frame. We can have cold fusion if we want it – and given the nature of the relationship between matter and energy, unlimited power could be ours, removing all manner of scarcity. We can do that.

But instead we argue about whether a kid should go to university. About catchment areas and school uniform policy and whether a teacher should get a little raise.

We are all Supermen...Titans...Angels...and we choose to crawl in the mud.

I certainly agree that we need an educated society.  My point is that not everyone needs a bachelors degree to be a productive member of society.  We need a strong military, police, fire, medics, plumbers, electricians, graphic designers, artists, musicians, etc.  None of which need a university education.  I think too many adults dismiss the military and trade schools as being less than ideal career paths.

To the OP

I'm currently looking into daycares for when I return to work.  In my area it's going to set me back £1200 a month.  Big con for the UK.

None of which need

But along these lines, why teach a doctor European History. They don't need it. Why teach an IT person Civics? Why teach anyone PE?

Because it behooves a democratic society to have the most highly educated citizenry possible. It helps people not only make decisions about who to vote for, but also allows every individual to contribute 100% of their potential to improving a world which desperately needs improving.

Again, PE isn't about Jimmy finding a pleasant activity for his spare time, it hopefully instills in him good habits which will keep him from developing health problems in life - problems society has to pay for. History shows Jane that contrary to those who paint it as such the 1950's was not an American Golden Era - black people had to eat out in the car park of restaurants. Rhetoric allows Jose to express himself without logical fallacy.

Now is the degree system still fit for purpose? Probably not. A lot of these things are and should be taught at high school/secondary level. Perhaps we need to tack a few more years on because there is a lot to learn.

I just want to see this idea of "what a person needs to squeak into the workforce" totally revamped to "what we can do to tap into the incredible potential of humanity". An across-the-board raising of the bar.

I'm lost.  Does that mean that the cost of university is a smoke screen and that the student isn't obligated to repay the loan?

I'm actually an advocate that student loan debt is not dischargeable in the US, as it's an intangible asset.  But I do think the student should be required to meet with an advisor before the loan is granted showing the full cost of their loan, their potential earning power of their degree program, what the repayments will look like, etc.  and I think there should just be less pressure overall to go straight to university from high school.  It's not for everyone and often students don't figure that out until they are a couple of years in.

For the current system, you're obliged to repay it as long as you're earning over £21,000 per year.  If you earn less than this you pay nothing.

If it's not repaid after 30 after you start paying it off, it's written off.  It's different to any other debt because nobody will chase you for it if you lose your job or you take a job paying less than £21,000 per year.

Thanks to those of you that offered advise and insight my original post. Would love to hear any one else's opinion on it who has been there. We're also wondering if now is a good time to look at possibly getting a house as the idea of having children in rented accommodation seems less than ideal. I'm guessing house prices will only be going up as the economy improves. hmmm. Tough choices.

University education debate is probably best left to another post as really that would be up to our future hypothetical children on what country they want to attend uni in. I agree with a lot of what's been said as someone who has a BA from the US and a MSc from the UK and work in a job where I didn't really need either. lol

We're also wondering if now is a good time to look at possibly getting a house as the idea of having children in rented accommodation seems less than ideal. I'm guessing house prices will only be going up as the economy improves. hmmm. Tough choices.

DON'T DO IT.

The children don't care whether you or a landlord owns the place they live.

You don't know where you want to settle. Houses tie you down. If you decide you want to give life on the other side a try, you either have to wait until you can offload your property (which can take years) or rent your property out.

At first glance, renting your place out seems like a great idea. You'll build a property portfolio! You'll have an investment!

You'll be an absentee landlord. And, let me tell you, it's a PAIN.

Unless you buy in an area where the potential rent covers ALL of your overhead, including a landlord insurance policy (homeowners doesn't cover renting) and a management company to take care of maintenance and rent (plus you have some savings to cover massive repairs or your home has a home warranty to cover the winter night when the boiler goes or whatever), renting is a huge hassle. And that's if you have GOOD tenants -- we paid to vet ours, checked the references ourselves, had all of their financial paperwork and they still had to be chased for rent every month. At least they didn't damage the property -- I can't even imagine. What would we have done? We would have lost thousands.

Until you settle, leave property ownership as a future goal. Your kids aren't even going to remember where you live when they're born, and until you have them you can't imagine how you're going to feel about where you live -- it changes EVERYTHING.

Just chiming in to say that as it stands right now, university (Bachelor's) is free for Scottish students who study in Scotland. The OP currently lives in Scotland, so there's that... for now anyway. A lot happens in 20 years.

Also, sonofsailor's posts here are awesome.

Also, sonofsailor's posts here are awesome.

You should see me iron a pair of trousers.

Listen there are times when a plumber or an electrician are the most heroic humans in the world. We all know this. And of course there are the times when they try and sell us a £150 "boiler flush".

I was reading recently about the health effects of the sewage system upgrade in Liverpool in the 60's & 70's. Things were pretty basic amongst the terraces until very recently...a lot of outhouses...a lot of pans of dishwater and such hurled out in the gutter. After the upgrades sickness and disease plummeted. If they are thinking of putting up a big new statue there somewhere, it should probably be of a person with a shovel or a spanner not a sword.

But there is this sneaky little idea permeating around in the collective conciousness that somehow certain types of education aren't for certain types of people. And this goes a bit deeper than whether certain career paths are valuable or not -whether they will "pay off". It's sound in a way...like homilies often are....a penny saved is a penny earned. But it is also a way of limiting certain occupations to certain social classes. "The Media" - the thing which guides the way events and thoughts are presented to the people - becomes the domain of those who can afford such frippery. The Law becomes a rarefied force; the masses made to obey but without any input. The legislative process a secretive cabal of socially inbred Etonian deal-making. Science the realm of the gentleman boffin.   

We should confront any attempt to place even the smallest barrier in the way of complete inclusion in any education system.   

There's an interesting article on The Atlantic addressing the "who is education for?" question.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/04/plato-to-plumbers/361373/

As a professor with lots of experience giving Ds and Fs, I know full well that the value of the liberal arts will always be lost on some people, at least at certain points in their lives.  (Whenever I return from a conference, I worry that many on whom the value of philosophy is lost have found jobs teaching philosophy!)

But I don’t think that this group of people is limited to any economic background or form of employment. My experience of having taught at relatively elite schools, like Emory University and Oglethorpe University, as well as at schools like Kennesaw State University and Kirkwood Community College, is that there are among future plumbers as many devotees of Plato as among the future wizards of Silicon Valley, and that there are among nurses’ aides and soldiers as many important voices for our democracy as among doctors and business moguls.

I agree with the idea that advanced education isn't necessarily for everyone, but it should be available for anyone who wants it, regardless of whether or not they're going to use it for work.