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Topic: Question re: Provisional Driver's License  (Read 5692 times)

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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2006, 10:21:02 AM »
 Well DVLA works in the Twilight Zone of Swansea Standard Time where time gets all distorted. 

LOL!!!  Thanks Paul, I really needed that this morning, it gave me a good laugh!!  :D
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2006, 11:59:24 AM »
Reply received from DVLA:

Quote
Thank you for your recent communication regarding the legislative requirements for taking a driving test, with the appropriate licence and the requirement for acceptable forms of identity in support of a driving licence application.

With regard to your first point Section 97(1)(a) & (b) of The Road Traffic Act 1988 (RTA) refers to the granting of licences,  their form and duration. It is this section of the RTA, which allows the Secretary of State (in practice DVLA) to specify what documentation is acceptable as evidence of identity. 

I should emphasise that the Agency's identity checking procedures are not intended to be discriminatory but our current procedures have been determined by the original procedures that we implemented when the Agency began to issue photocard licences in 1998. At that time we accepted many forms of identity documentation,   including non-UK issued birth certificates, however the integrity of the driver database was at risk of being undermined by an ever increasing number of falsified identity documents and counterfeit birth certificates.

Following a security review DVLA ceased to accept non-UK birth certificates in 2003, as the DVLA was unable to determine the authenticity of these documents. In the case of UK Birth Certificates and the earlier Certificate of Registry of Birth the DVLA can liase with the General Register Office, the issuing authority, to determine the authenticity of suspect UK Birth Certificates.

I've checked the act referred to, and it does indeed state that documentation should be provided as the Secretary of State may require (powers delegated by said SoS to DVLA). 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880052_en_4.htm#mdiv97


Reply continues:

Quote
As to your second point regarding a reference for clarification it is Section 38(10) of the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999, that determines the validity of a "appropriate licence" for a driving test.

The reason that a US full licence is not acceptable for the purpose of sitting a UK driving test is that US full licences do not show the required Provisional Category Entitlement that would allow the licence holder to sit a driving test in the UK, hence the requirement for the holder of a US full licence to apply for a UK provisional licence.

Section 38(10) says:

Quote
(10) In this regulation and regulation 39 -

      "appropriate licence" means a licence, other than an excepted provisional licence, which -

      (a) is valid at the date of the test,

      (b) bears the signature of the person who has submitted himself for the test, and

      (c) is either -

            (i) a provisional licence authorising the person submitting himself for the test to drive motor vehicles of the same class as the vehicle which he has provided for the test, or

            (ii) a full licence which by virtue of section 98 of the Traffic Act and regulation 19, authorises that person to drive motor vehicles of that class subject to the same conditions as if he were so authorised by a provisional licence, or

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992864.htm#38

Now, The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1987 section 25 specifies that for a period of 12 months your U.S. license conveys the same authority to drive here as a U.K. full license.   As far as I can see DVLA's argument, therefore, they're saying that because your U.S. license doesn't place the same restrictions upon your driving as a U.K. provisional license ("L" plates, licensed driver with you etc.) that it's not valid for the test. 

If that's really the case, then it's ridiculous.  They're saying that a license which conveys greater authority is not acceptable in a situation which only requires one granting lesser authority.   

I've sent an e-mail back asking for confirmation.  I've also asked if DVLA has petitioned for this clearly non-sensical regulation to be revised if my interpretation is correct.  That should stir things up a little!   ;D

P.S.  I've also asked why they refuse to verify passports at regional centers and insist on them being sent to Swansea.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 12:03:51 PM by Paul_1966 »
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2006, 12:22:19 PM »
Boy, it just keeps getting sillier and sillier with the happy folks at the DVLA. Nevermind, I've given up trying to understand them and any hope of getting my passport back anytime soon (35 days and counting...).

Update: After many, many calls and almost never ending transfers between departments, my passport is finally on its way back to me.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 07:14:51 PM by tanis »


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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2006, 05:24:46 PM »
Quote from: Paul_1966
I've sent an e-mail back asking for confirmation.  I've also asked if DVLA has petitioned for this clearly non-sensical regulation to be revised if my interpretation is correct.  That should stir things up a little!    ;D

P.S.  I've also asked why they refuse to verify passports at regional centers and insist on them being sent to Swansea.

Further communication received from DVLA:

Quote
Thank you for your further enquiry regarding DVLA operational identity checking procedures and the legislative requirements for a driving test.

Our operational procedures regarding the acceptance of non-UK birth certificates are determined by the practicalities of checking the validity of documents with the appropriate issuing authorities. It is not practical to verify the validity of all foreign birth certificates and it would be discriminatory to accept some non-UK birth certificates and not others.

Hmm.....  Isn't it also discriminatory to allow someone with a French/German/Dutch etc. license to just swap it for a U.K. one while requiring Americans and Canadians to take the full range of tests?    :-\\\\

DVLA response continues:

Quote
It may help if I explain that up until August 2003 DVLA offered a checking service at its 40 Local Offices where holders of non-UK/EC/EEA identity documents could have their documents checked and returned to them. Following a security review this service was withdrawn because of serious concerns that the service was being targeted by fraudsters and counterfeiters. The range of documents being produced by applicants was to great for Local Office staff to develop sufficient expertise to identify high quality counterfeit documents. This presented an unacceptable threat to the security and integrity of the driving licence system and the service was withdrawn.

DVLA now has a centralised team responsible for checking all non-UK passports and this team had built up considerable expertise in this field.

The Secretary of State target time to process a licence application and return identity documents is 15 days, however in practice this is often much less with licences and identity documents returned within a few days from receipt of the application to the passport being mailed back to the applicant.

As for my other query about whether they had petitioned for the non-sensical provisional license requirement to be changed, it seems they don't want to answer but are happy to just quote the regulations again:

Quote
In your letter you refer to the requirement for an appropriate licence to take a driving test. As stated in our previous correspondence that requirement can be found in Regulation 38(10) of the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999. The regulations to which you refer, The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1987 were revoked by the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996 (Statutory Instrument 1996 No.2824), which in turn were revoked by the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 (Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2864).

I'll check up on those revocations/changes and report back.

 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 05:29:22 PM by Paul_1966 »
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2006, 05:49:28 PM »
O.K., so The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1987 have now been changed twice to become the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999.   Section 80 of that act is now the one which authorizes you to drive for up to 12 months upon becoming resident here:

Quote
Persons who become resident in Great Britain

80.  - (1) A person who becomes resident in Great Britain who is -

      (a) the holder of a relevant permit, and

      (b) not disqualified for holding or obtaining a licence in Great Britain

shall, during the period of one year after he becomes so resident, be treated for the purposes of section 87 of the Traffic Act as the holder of a licence authorising him to drive all classes of small vehicle, motor bicycle or moped which he is authorised to drive by that permit.

Note, however, that this appears to limit your U.S. license to satisfying just the provisions of section 87 of the The Road Traffic Act 1988, which says:

Quote
87.—(1) It is an offence for a person to drive on a road a motor vehicle of any class if he is not the holder of a licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of that class.

So the regulations do seem to be saying that your U.S. license is good enough to allow you to drive for up to year under the same conditions as any other U.K.-licensed driver, but is not good enough to satisfy the requirements for a driving test because it doesn't impose the same limitations as a U.K. provisional. 

Don't you just love bureaucracy?   :P

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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2006, 09:04:25 AM »
I finally got my provisional license in the mail this morning. I made the online application on 11 June and went to DVLA Birmingham with my supporting documents on 13 June. Even though I have a medical condition that I had to divulge to the DVLA (I'm a tablet treated diabetic), I contacted them before making the application to make sure that it wouldn't delay processing. FYI - If you have a medical condition (even one they say wouldn't stop you from getting a license), it may be worth it to fill out the medical form and submit it along with your application. Does anybody think that I could pass the theory and practical before my Missouri license expires on Sunday?  :)


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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2006, 05:35:43 AM »
I finally got my provisional license in the mail this morning. I made the online application on 11 June and went to DVLA Birmingham with my supporting documents on 13 June. Even though I have a medical condition that I had to divulge to the DVLA (I'm a tablet treated diabetic), I contacted them before making the application to make sure that it wouldn't delay processing. FYI - If you have a medical condition (even one they say wouldn't stop you from getting a license), it may be worth it to fill out the medical form and submit it along with your application. Does anybody think that I could pass the theory and practical before my Missouri license expires on Sunday?  :)

Yay Tanis!  But did you get your passport back?  I got my licence last Friday after the initial submission of 12 June...  And no, I do not love this beaurocracy!  It just seems so ridiculous.
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2006, 07:22:00 AM »
Yay Tanis!  But did you get your passport back?  I got my licence last Friday after the initial submission of 12 June...  And no, I do not love this beaurocracy!  It just seems so ridiculous.

Strangely enough the medical letter and license are dated 2 August, the day I all but cussed out the clerk on the phone. He gave me a date that he couldn't back up to try and placate me and I went off. I've thought about sending a complaint letter but I seriously doubt it'll do any good.

I got my passport back on 18 July. That took a 30 min call on the 17th to get someone to find it and get it sent back to me. They really don't seem to get how important it is to have your passport. I'm so glad to have this part over with. I'm not looking forward to switching it over to a full license, who knows how long that'll take?


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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2006, 09:03:53 AM »
I'm not looking forward to switching it over to a full license, who knows how long that'll take?

well, at least 8 weeks because that is the earliest you'll get a testing date..
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2006, 11:59:27 AM »
mrspink's right- if you apply for the next available testing date often it's 6-8 weeks in advance... but if you're like me and was desperate to get a test date you can call back every day or so and ask for a cancellation appointment... able to get one in 2 weeks. ... but you have to be avilable to take the test then and there....
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2006, 08:19:36 AM »
Has anyone had an emergency and had to leave the country whilst they had your passport?

I am about to start this process, and the worst thing I can imagine is having a death in the family or other emergency and having my passport in limbo. What would happen in that case?  ???
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2006, 02:22:59 PM »
Why exactly do they need your passport? From what I thought, you just had to apply in person at a main branch of the DVLA so that they could verify your idenity.... which the closest one to where we will be living would be Wimbledon. From what I am reading on your posts, we would have to go to Swansea? Can you apply in person at Swansea and get your passport back right away so that they don't have to post it to you?


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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2006, 02:27:32 PM »
Why exactly do they need your passport? From what I thought, you just had to apply in person at a main branch of the DVLA so that they could verify your idenity.... which the closest one to where we will be living would be Wimbledon. From what I am reading on your posts, we would have to go to Swansea? Can you apply in person at Swansea and get your passport back right away so that they don't have to post it to you?

UK passport holders can have their passports verfied in person at participating Post Offices or local DVLA offices.  US passport holders must send their passports to Swansea.

ETA -- US passport holders can have their photographs signed at a local DVLA office if they haven't lived here for two years when applying for their provisional license.  After they verify the photo, they'll still take the passport and send it to Swansea.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 02:29:03 PM by Lola »


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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2006, 02:29:15 PM »
Why exactly do they need your passport? From what I thought, you just had to apply in person at a main branch of the DVLA so that they could verify your idenity.... which the closest one to where we will be living would be Wimbledon. From what I am reading on your posts, we would have to go to Swansea? Can you apply in person at Swansea and get your passport back right away so that they don't have to post it to you?

I'm not sure there is actually a customer face-to-face point in Swansea..  I consider it more of a black hole.  If you go in, you may not come out!!!  (enter twilight zone music here..) ::)
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Re: Question re: Provisional Driver's License
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2006, 03:55:14 PM »
I'm not sure there is actually a customer face-to-face point in Swansea.. 

Apparently there is a local DVLA office in Llansamlet, a few miles outside of Swansea, but I would expect it to follow the same procedures as all the others (in other words, if no other local office in the country will verify a U.S. passport, Llansamlet probably won't either).

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/local/lo_swansea.htm

Quote
I consider it more of a black hole.  If you go in, you may not come out!!!  (enter twilight zone music here..) ::) 

LOL!

You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a perplexing land of red-tape whose boundaries are that of bureaucrats' imagination. There's a signpost up ahead.  Your next stop: The DVLA!     ;D
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