Depressing... 'the sad death of organic'

It's happening in the UK, too.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/10/13/notes101306.DTL

I guess I'm missing the point.  I eat about 98% organics, and so to be able to get more organic items more easily (and at better prices) sounds fine to me. 

The article is built around circular logic.  Just because Kellogg's is making organic breakfast cereal, what's wrong there?  Does it have to be a tree-hugging brand to be buyable?  Organic means organic -- regardless of the brand.  No pesticides, no nothing -- just pure foods.  They talk about 'factories' like they just evil because they're factories . . . oooooh, organics could not possibly come from a factory, could they? 

I do agree that locally grown is a better choice for the environment, but does that mean that we don't want to eat organics if they aren't raised/produced in our immediate area?  That cuts out a lot of foods for a lot of the year. 

They also claim that with Walmart getting into selling organics, they will just replace pesticides with other chemicals.  Will they?  Is there any proof of that?  We don't have  to buy them if they do, but anyone who wants to is free to.

Personally, I'm thrilled to be able to buy my organics at more places, and at more competitive prices.  I hope that the days of having to shop by post, or in obscure shops, are over -- how nice to get my food at lower prices, and more easily.  I shop Sainsbury's at the present for my organics, and appreciate the convenience.

More choices, and more convenience?  Bring 'em on!

I do agree that locally grown is a better choice for the environment, but does that mean that we don't want to eat organics if they aren't raised/produced in our immediate area?  That cuts out a lot of foods for a lot of the year. 

It's not that simple. I have friends who have a big farm and grow organic veg here for large markets (Tesco, et al). The problem is the regulations. They grow everything purely organically, and that's fine. But the supermarkets want the veg packaged a certain way. That means that their broccoli, etc. gets shipped on a yucky big plane all the way to Belgium, to sit in a yucky big factory there for a week or so, then sealed in yucky plastic, then sent back to the UK to be sold as "organic" in a British supermarket.

Not so nice. And given the size of Kellogg's (and other similar companies), I'm fairly sure their process is similar.

You'd actually be better off buying locally grown NON-organic stuff, as sad as that is.

I guess to me it's about a lot more than pesticide free. I don't want to buy organic yogurt if it means they are shipping the organic milk in from New Zealand to a factory in the UK. I don't want to buy organic apples from Tesco that come from Italy or the USA at the height of British apple season (this has been by experience the last  2 times I was there). I think food miles are just as important as pesticide free - as is eating as seasonally as possible.

However, I do agree that it is a difficult dilemma. The more people want organic, the more the fat-cat companies will provide it to us, and at cheaper rates. The problem is that the US is already watering down it's organic standards so that the demand can be met. And the Soil Association here in the UK has been accused of this (though they say it's not true and that producers are actually choosing to not be certified by them and go to less stringent certifying bodies instead). So in the long run, you may not be getting 'organic' products - or at least organic how you would define them.

I guess to me it's about a lot more than pesticide free. I don't want to buy organic yogurt if it means they are shipping the organic milk in from New Zealand to a factory in the UK. I don't want to buy organic apples from Tesco that come from Italy or the USA at the height of British apple season (this has been by experience the last  2 times I was there). I think food miles are just as important as pesticide free - as is eating as seasonally as possible.

I quite agree. Supporting organic growing is not compatible with being able to eat products all the year around - and increasing food miles. Any gains in health will be negated by increased pollution, environmental deterioration etc.

I quite agree. Supporting organic growing is not compatible with being able to eat products all the year around - and increasing food miles.

But I do see a trend in all the foodie magazines focusing on in-season fruit and veg. I think that's a really good thing. I love strawberries and would love to have them year-round, but I do try and limit my strawberry consumption to the months when I can get local ones.

I suppose it depends where your priorities lie.  I find organic produce usually tastes better than the non-organic so if that's your priority you may not care where it comes from.  I don't really buy into the only buying local produce idea, otherwise you are going to be stuck with only what's in season, which if you look at the little book that came with the Guardian today is often not very much - there are several months listed where rhubarb is the only fruit in season, bleuch!  If you are going to be strict about buying locally you'd better do it with everything otherwise what's the point, so no more imported goodies folks. 

Yes, it's pretty impossible to only buy locally sourced food, especially in the winter and maintain your sanity. Like all things, it becomes a question of balance. Organic apples from Italy, or New Zealand? Oranges from Spain or Florida? Part of the problem is that our modern conveniences have virtually eliminated ways of preserving food that would enable us to have it over the winter. Most people have little time or desire to can, pickle, salt, or even freeze what we can get locally.

The Guardian's book was written by Hugh Fearley-Whittingstall and I think that even he agrees that you are probably going to buy some citrus in the winter!

One of the largest organic delivery box schemes, Riverford Organics, will supplement their winter boxes with organic fruit and veg from warmer climates. But I know they vet the farms and also won't ship via airplane. At least that used to be their policy. Hope it still is.

Yes, it's pretty impossible to only buy locally sourced food, especially in the winter and maintain your sanity . . .  our modern conveniences have virtually eliminated ways of preserving food that would enable us to have it over the winter.

I don't understand -- what modern conveniences have eliminated our ability to preserve foods?  Every summer I garden (and buy locally for things like fruits) which I then preserve/freeze.  I even packed my basil plants into layers of salt for the winter.  What is it that's preventing us from preserving our own foods these days? 

And preserving our sanity?  Our ancestors ate only what was locally-available for generations . . . there was no other chioce.  So are you saying we should buy locally if it isn't too dull, but if it challenges us too much, give up and buy non-locally?  Have it both ways?

It's not that simple. I have friends who have a big farm and grow organic veg here for large markets  . . . their broccoli, etc. gets shipped on a yucky big plane all the way to Belgium, to sit in a yucky big factory there for a week or so, then sealed in yucky plastic, then sent back to the UK to be sold as "organic" in a British supermarket.

You'd actually be better off buying locally grown NON-organic stuff, as sad as that is.

What you're saying is that "some supermarket chains require the foods to be shipped and packaged elsewhere." That happens.  But putting non-organics into your body is not the same as organics.  I like the taste of organics, and I know that they're better for me.  If I can get them locally, fine, but if not, I'm not eating chemicals and pesticides.   These things are not supposed to go into our bodies.   But I'm saying this to a generation of people who eat fast food daily, according to research.  (Do they know where all that fast food comes from??  It sure isn't grown locally!  Even the Coca-Cola and ketchup packets are trucked/flown in!)

I guess to me it's about a lot more than pesticide free . . .  I think food miles are just as important as pesticide free - as is eating as seasonally as possible.

Buying locally is a consideration, and it can be linked to organics . . . or not.  You can get local or non-local organics. 

Buying locally is, of course, the best thing all of us can do to reduce our ecologic footprint.  There are lots of calculators online that you can do to test yours.  (Most people would be shocked to find that if others lived like they do, we would need at least 3 or 4 planets called Earth to sustain all of us.)

Regarding food miles, it's surprising how many of those food-mile-conscious people don't even consider if the sofa they bought can be broken down and recycled, or how far it had to be transported.  Some recycle a little, some nothing, others everything possible.  (And do you walk your glass to the recycling center every day or two, as I do, or drive it there?  Easy enough to drop it along the way when heading out shopping.)  And do these same food-mile-conscious people buy their glossy magazines to read about organics (apparently no worries about the chemicals used in printing). And do they buy books, or borrow from a library?  Do they tell themselves that they are buying local foods, but the ingredients that their local bakery uses are not local ingredients?  How much new clothing do they buy each year?  Where was it made?  Where do they go on holiday each year?  How many air miles are they using?  (Dare I ask -- how many times did they and their S.O. fly back and forth over the pond before moving here?)  Do they drive cars instead of using public transport exclusively (oh, but they are always one of the special few who are different from the rest of us who truly do need a car    )? 

Point is, there's more to it than food miles. 

I suppose it depends where your priorities lie.  I find organic produce usually tastes better than the non-organic so if that's your priority you may not care where it comes from . . .   If you are going to be strict about buying locally you'd better do it with everything otherwise what's the point, so no more imported goodies folks. 

Exactly my point . . . 

EDITED to add: I'd better not see you 'food-mile-conscious people' posting on "Where can I get American food here?"       Only kidding, of course!

Complex topic, isn't it though?  Not trying in any way to provoke anyone -- just trying to point out all the aspects of it . . . there's more to it than food miles.  It's 'everything' miles that matter in the big picture.  Be aware of all of it.

So are you saying we should buy locally if it isn't too dull, but if it challenges us too much, give up and buy non-locally?  Have it both ways?

I like mangos. 

I do try to buy locally, but there are lots of fruits & veg that simply do not grow in the UK. I'm not going to give up my love of tropical fruit just because I live here.

What you're saying is that "some supermarket chains require the foods to be shipped and packaged elsewhere." That happens.  But putting non-organics into your body is not the same as organics.  I like the taste of organics, and I know that they're better for me.  If I can get them locally, fine, but if not, I'm not eating chemicals and pesticides.

Produce that's been sent half way around the world and then, a month later, turned up in my supermarket is not something I want to eat, organic or not, if I can avoid it. For me, I'd rather buy locally grown stuff from my farm shop that has been picked that day by someone I know. Sometimes they use pesticides, sometimes they don't. But to me fresher always tastes better than unfresh, even if it's not organic. I'd rather not eat chemicals, but until there's a way to get easy access to organic and fresh produce, then I don't see that I have much of an option.

Produce that's been sent half way around the world and then, a month later, turned up in my supermarket is not something I want to eat, organic or not, if I can avoid it.

Oh, let's not exaggerate!     You were talking of broccoli going to Belgium -- that's not halfway around the world, and it won't take a month!  Let's face it, no one would buy the stuff it it were decrepit and creepy and a month old -- it goes out and back promptly. 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and you can have the local pesticides, and I'll have the long-distance organics.   

One of the largest organic delivery box schemes, Riverford Organics, will supplement their winter boxes with organic fruit and veg from warmer climates. But I know they vet the farms and also won't ship via airplane. At least that used to be their policy. Hope it still is.

So, they ship via, well, ship.  Imagine......tropical produce sitting on a ship for two weeks at a time....THAT'S something I don't want to eat.  One can only hope they at least freeze it.

June

OnMyWay, you missed my point. YOU may well be growing your own food and preserving it (and very impressively I might add), but face it - Most people aren't and most people have absolutely no desire to do so. The majority of the population are willing slaves to the big supermarkets who can and do dictate some really ridiculous things regarding our food.

Chary's friends' broccoli does not NEED to be packaged in Belgium. My organic apples, at the PEAK of British apple season, do not NEED to be imported from bloomin' New Zealand.  My tomatoes do not need to perfectly round and my pears blemish free. My organic beef should not be from Argentina when there's a perfectly good organic beef farmer just down the road.

However, yes, I do think you can, within reason, have it both ways. I eat mangos and citrus. But as I pointed out earlier, I'm going to try to eat Spanish oranges rather than ones from Florida. To me, it's about making some difference, not just saying 'ah, this is impossible' and doing nothing! If everyone made just a little of this kind of effort, there would be a sea-change in how people shop and how the supermarkets provide our food.

And June, I don't see your point. Just because produce is flown via plane does not in any way make it arrive at your supermarket any faster. Sitting on a ship, sitting in a warehouse. What difference does that make except the much more polluting effects of the airplane are eliminated? And I would hope they don'tfreeze my oranges!! I don't like orange sludge!

Another point is that if you do buy local, from small local farmers, yes, they probably do use pesticides. But they probably don't use nearly as many as the big agribusiness farms do.

Another thing I try to do is buy organic where it counts. There are lists available of produce that is worth buying organic (apples for example) versus ones that tend not to be treated very much (avocadoes for example). This is really handy especially if you are on a budget.

OK, off my soap box (or is that my organic veg box?!).

Just to digress a little ... about those NZ apples ... the ones you get in NZ are quite horrible because all the best stuff is exported here ... by the time it gets here it's not that great anymore ... so people are losing out both ways.