WARNING: When you move to UK OR new flat / house ...

As some of you may know, I am having big problems with all the utilities companies at my new flat. I am posting my situation in a new thread to inform anyone who is thinking of renting a flat or apartment or even thinking of moving to UK with the hope that you will not face the same issues or at least can be prepared.

I got my HSMP approval in August 2006 with the cost of over US$ 1,500 (application and visa fee for wife, my daughter and myself). I have done many research about living in the UK to ensure that I have some understanding of how things are done here. I flew to UK in January 2007 and got a job within 2 weeks. Everything seems to be great (at the time).

I spent about 2 weeks in February-March 2007 looking for a flat that is wheelchair accessible (for my wife) and is in a safe area. I searched high and low, from Bayswater to Silvertown and from Greenwich to Wanstead and Harrow. I spoke with almost 20 agents and posted adverts in Gumtree. Finally, we found a flat last week that meets all of the above. The flat was managed by a property management company that is appointed by the landlord. I have never met with the landlord and always interfaced with the property mgt. company.

Everything went smoothly during the tenancy process, from reference check to the flat inventory, until I tried to open a BT landline rental...

Apparently, the previous tenant at my flat NEVER paid their (there were 3 persons living here previous) bills and that's include:
- British Telecom (BT) landline
- Internet
- Electricity and gas
- Water
- TV license

The previous tenant was actually evicted by the landlord, by court order, for not having paid the rent for 9 months (!)

The problems I have now is that EVERY SINGLE of the utilities company mentioned above will NOT allow me to get a service from them UNTIL the previous tenant HAS paid their bill. I was ASKED to CONTACT the PREVIOUS TENANT and have them pay the bill.

For electricity/gas/water, they seem to be willing to work with me and currently are checking with their management team, but they said "No promise".

For the landline (BT), they REFUSED to open an account, UNLESS I pay them GBP 129.99 (BT) to open a new line or contact the previous tenant to settle the bill.

For the Internet provider (Bulldog), they said the BT line has been marked (DSL marker) and I won't be able to get a DSL connection, be it from them or anyone else, until the previous tenant settle the bill or have BT open a new line (see above).

As you can see, just because the previous tenant did NOT pay their bill, I have to bear the brunt of everything. I simply cannot open any of the above services. The property management company and the landlord do not seem to care and just dragging their feet when I chased them. Their attitude is: "You don't like it? Move, but you're still liable for 12 months contract".

I researched the Internet and many people were having the same issue. Some gave up and paid BT and the utilities company themselves, some complaint to the MP and OfCom. The latter route took MONTHS to clear.

But the worst problem of all: it seems that the way the CREDIT SYSTEM works in the UK is based on YOUR ADDRESS, since people here do not have an identifier number like a Social Security Number in the US. So POTENTIALLY, my credit may be RUINED within 3 weeks of arriving in this country, all simply because the previous tenant did not pay the bills.

This is something that I would NEVER thought would happen in a country like UK. The fallout of this is that I may end up:

a) Not having phone or Internet for the next 6 months (Based on Google)
b) Not being able to get electricity, gas, and water, unless I pay the previous tenant bill or fight EACH company in court
c) Having my credit ruined from the start.

ALL because:
a) The previous tenant did not pay the bill
b) All the utilities company did not want the hassle of chasing the previous tenant to pay for their bill and instead just "force" the current tenant to deal with the bills

I have lived in Singapore, Australia, Indonesia, and US (of course) and I never came across such a bureaucratic situation, where the big companies do not want to deal with someone not paying their bills, because they know they can push the new tenants around.

Currently I am discussing things with my lawyer but seeing the cost of the legal fees, I may end up just RETURNING TO US after having been living in the UK for just 2 months. This is a blow to me, and I am sure to ANYONE who’s migrating from one country to another. I pretty much do not have any legal rights in this matter, unless I got loads of money to hire lawyers to fight BT, Bulldog, EDF, Thames Water, AND the property management company.

I hope my “story” above can help you during your apartment hunting, or even when you’re thinking of moving to the UK. This doesn’t mean UK as a bad country, but the way things work here may be too much for you and in an extreme situation (like me), you may have to leave the country.

If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to PM me.

How absolutely terrible! Yes there are a lot of bizarre and incredibly frustrating things about the UK. I am so sorry that you are dealing with this stress. Maybe someone on this site can give you some good advise. In the meantime, I wonder if the Citizens Advice Bureau could assist you?

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

As for them telling you to go chase the former tenant that is beyond belief!! 

This is completely bizarre! How can they possibly think this is a good way to settle bills? I just can't believe that this is legal! If it were, then what is stopping every person in the UK from just not paying so that they are evicted and their bills never settled? Is there any way to find out if there are such holds on unsettled bills on an address before you purchase/move in? It seems to me like this is more of a scam than anything else!

Please do update us with any new info you discover. This is totally bizarre and really unbelievable!

Definitely contact the Citizen's Advice Bureau.

Hi Lanwarrior,

First of all - this scenario is most DEFINITLEY not true or put another way, a NEW tenant in a rented building DOES NOT INHERIT the defaulted payments of the previous occupier.

The various companies BLACKLIST the NAME they have on record - if that person shows up at another address, they then charge them with the outstanding amount.

Right now you are probably thinking 'thats not what I've been told by these companies'
- which is fair enough, and I'd be thinking the same - however think for a second if what you've experienced is true the 'UK over'

EVERYBODY would just put their bills in the fictitious name of Paul smith - use up services etc and then just leave causing maximum disruption for the next person moving in to pay off what is NOT their debt. Does that happen? most certianly does not!

Now then, I'll explain what I've been told by the various utility companies as a landlord.

Ive had 'good tenants' so far, with a little 'blip' of 2 sets of them doing EXACTLY what you've mentioned, used up services and then just left leaving various significant amounts outstanding.

I've then put the electric, water, council tax, telephone bills in MY name effective of the date the previous idiots LEFT. I take meter readings and give to the person on the phone. I've then been told what happens. They then pass to their debt recovery people - and letter after letter comes to the flat, right up to bailiffs and court summons - in that last persons name of course wanting back £548 etc etc. Because the bills are now in MY name, I cannot be denied the service - and hence why I've had everything available. When I found a new tenant, I simply call them up and on the date of transfer I give them the meter readings and I then pay off the final amount. I've then asked about whrn people 'do a runner' - who picks up the bill for that amount (I had defaults on them all too) and EACH company has told me that they blacklist that name, in alot of cases they do show up at other addresses and they chase them at their new place, but most people are wise to this, they move in with others and they put their name in for the bills.

AT NO POINT HAVE I EVER NOR WILL I EVER PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSES OUTSTANDING DEBT - I've been catagorically told this, it DOES NOT affect your possible credit because all the credit agencies know the address has been previously rented and therefore bad debt cannot be counted against you as an innocent dweller. Again this is from each company involved.

I'm really dismayed you've paid the BT bill for someone else, its done now - but please ring them back up and ask them to refund you or put it towards you getting that amount in service in your name.

Now again, you're probably thinking - thats not what Ive been told nor read on the web - and until such time as you do get somehwere mate, you are going to treat all i said with skepticism - which I fully understand.

Please dont get discouraged from staying here based on this, I'm going to stick my neck out (from your point of view!) and say this is COMPLETELY UNTRUE, and you'd be wise to speak with the lawyers, and council, the fraud dept. at the utility companies. My own examples of this and my same concerns (when it happened to me as a landlord) mean I say this all in order to better equip you with practical experience from others who've had similar stuff happen.

I hope this helps mate, and im still chasing my staff guy to see if he can remember that company name for you !!

Please also visit http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?bid=51110  have a look around the other boards too, this site is fantastic which really really really knowledgeable people for almost every subject you can think of.

Finally, keep at it and I'm SURE you'll soon be posting of your relief of getting this staightened out and allowing you to live/work with these basics.

Like everyone else so far, its unbeleiveable some of the stuff you've been told!

Keep us all posted on this please!

Best of luck !

DtM! West London & Slough UK!

Hello all,

Thank you so much for the advice and word of encouragement, and Denis for “…stick[ing] [your] neck out.”  I definitely will check out CAB website and Fools.co.uk forum.

I am worried sick with the whole situation, primarily because I just came to this country and had to deal with being unable to get all the basic services in the new flat. Add this to the vigorous apartment searching for the last 2 weeks (not many places are wheelchair accessible!) and working in a Big 4 firm (all kinds of hours), plus the possibility of getting bad credit from the start just take its toll. I am using my phone for Internet access and this is a Pay-as-you-go plan, so with all the phone calls I made and the Internet access charge, you can imagine the cost for this alone is going through the roof! It’s 2:00 AM now and I am so worried I can’t even sleep!

For the landline rental (BT) and Internet, BT simply just refused in providing me with a landline rental because of the previous tenant not paying their bill. I think I forgot to mention this to everyone: BT ALSO said that the previous tenant use different phone (don’t know who) and Internet service (Bulldog), even though the tenant use BT for the landline rental. The phone and Internet service has NOT been cancelled according to BT “systems” and they can’t cancel it since it belongs to another company. Therefore, BT said that I couldn’t get a new line with them because:

-   The BT landline rental hasn’t been paid
-   The landline is used for phone and Internet service with other company (not BT) and it’s still active, thus BT can’t do anything

BUT, if I pay the GBP 129.99 for a brand new line, the problem goes away, or so they say. Yeah, right... As of today, I have NOT paid BT for this “new line” cost, nor have I paid the previous tenant unpaid bill. I am going to call BT again and this time I will demand to talk to Customer Service manager.

For the electricity/water/gas, let’s see what each of these companies will tell me tomorrow. I am hoping their “management” teams understand and know how to handle this kind of situation.

If the above fails, I will pursue the property management company and the landlord. Do you think it is within my legal rights to:

a)   Ask them to pay for the BT new line if BT won’t budge?
..or..
b)   MOVE from the place, without having to continue the 12 months contract, on the basis that the place is not suitable for living (no gas / electricity / phone) due to the previous tenant action?

In the meantime, I will contact CAB to get their opinion. To be honest, I am trying to avoid using an actual lawyer since this is way too costly and the court process (usually) move very slowly. I am just hoping this thing will not drag too long and CAB can assist me ASAP. It has been an exhaustive time for me and my family and is impacting me at work.

For the credit rating, thank you so much for the information. I was worried because I know there is no unique “identifier” (such as SSN) for the credit reporting agencies (CRA) in UK to track bad debt other than the address. However, it seems that even though this is the case, the CRA have a process in place to DIFFERENTIATE between 2 persons that lived in the same address (one with bad credit and the other with good / or no credit). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is there any way to find out if there are such holds on unsettled bills on an address before you purchase/move in?

I just spoke with my friend who just purchased a flat and he said in his case, there is lawyers involved and they WILL check for this thing as part of the seller legal obligation to disclose everything that is relevant. I.e. the flat has not been used for crimincal activity, etc

I will provide more updates soon. Stay tuned!

Ianwarrior, Citizens Advice Bureau is really good but I will warn you that depending upon where you live, they can be slow. This is because they are completely staffed by volunteers. My experience with them in a small town is that we got to their office well before their doors open and then still had to wait. Some places offer email service though it can take a day or more to get a reply. You can also book appointments with them at some places but again, they could be booked up a couple weeks in advance.

TBH, I think you need to be much more forceful with the customer service people. Perhaps you can request a direct transfer to the fraud dept or managers?

What are you doing for water/elec/gas right now? Is it in the landlord's name?

Dennis has given you some very good info so please keep us posted. I can imagine how stressful this is for you though.

Also, as a word of warning, if the previous tenants bolted on all this, they will have bolted on other things like credit cards or traffic violations. You could end up having a bailiff on your door one day. This happened to me but IT WAS OK! All I had to do was show them ID to prove I wasn't who they were looking for. A bit scary but I lived!

Good luck!

I can't believe this story! How totally horrid!! I think I would start pursuing legal action against the rental agency to get them to let you out of your lease. Surely they can't expect you to live in what is essentially an uninhabitable property?

Previous tenants here have skipped out on all kinds of things.  But in Scotland, the bailiffs can only come round if you've failed to pay council tax or business rates.  I did have the cops come round one time, looking for a former tenant called Thomas MacDonald, but it became very clear to them that I'm not Thomas MacDonald. 

I think I forgot to mention this to everyone: BT ALSO said that the previous tenant use different phone (don’t know who) and Internet service (Bulldog), even though the tenant use BT for the landline rental. The phone and Internet service has NOT been cancelled according to BT “systems” and they can’t cancel it since it belongs to another company. Therefore, BT said that I couldn’t get a new line with them because:

-   The BT landline rental hasn’t been paid
-   The landline is used for phone and Internet service with other company (not BT) and it’s still active, thus BT can’t do anything

BUT, if I pay the GBP 129.99 for a brand new line, the problem goes away, or so they say.

This is one of the problems that I mentioned briefly in the other thread about the way the system works now that we have so many different companies involved.  If you have a regular BT telephone line and then take out DSL service with some other company, that telephone line gets a marker put on it showing that it is "owned" by that other company as far as DSL is concerned.  According to the rules, BT is then not allowed to change anything relating to that DSL service on the line until the other company relinquishes control, and if that third-party refuses to do so until the bill is settled, you can end up in the situation you've described. 

The fee BT is quoting sounds like the current amount for installing a completely new line from scratch (i.e. the same as they would charge to run a new circuit to a house which had no previous phone service).  No doubt that would get around the problem, since it would be a completely new line and thus would have no markers on it showing that all or part of it is "owned" by some other company. 

It's completely unfair that you should feel pressured into going with that option through no fault of your own, but that's the way the system is set up at the moment. 

Ianwarrior, instead of dealing with BT, have you looked at Virgin's cable TV packages? They bundle phone service, TV and broadband and you don't need to have a BT line. You'll miss out on having the Sky channels at the moment but I think it's a small price to pay to not have to battle BT and Bulldog and god knows who else.

Hi Lanwarrior,

Just read the latest you posted up - I really really do smell a rat in all of this from the utility companies. BT seem to be really confusing. I 'Think' what they're suggesting is that you take a new line out in your name and they'll connect it up and away you go with getting ADSL activated on it and all that - this way, you get what you want, you have a 'clean' connection with them - downside is the £129.99 to get this done - else it's a case of the red tape getting sorted out on the current line and ADSL tag etc etc at the end of which it'd probably be that they'll switch the line back on with the bill in your name probably for free or a 9.99 re-connect charge or something.

There's no real recourse with the management company nor the letting agent, i'll BET you a million pounds they will NOT pay the outstanding debts of some f*cker who's legged it from a flat with outstanding debts, you 'should' feel the same way too.

If you've signed contracts to live there for 12 months, just check you do have a 'cooling off' period or some clause which allows you to leave without owing them money. If not, then you'll have to pay up the 12 months upfront to get out of the contract. Look into this further.

I find it utterly shocking you have to put up with this crap from these companies, I'm sure you've spoken to someone in a dept. that doesn't know of this stuff and have told you basically what amounts to porkies. The Internet tag thing I can understand as that process is as clear as mud when everything is legitimate - but the others saying you have to pay off someone elses debt is just ludicrous!

Please ask for a copy of the T&C from each utility and ask them to show you in black and white where it says you have to do this.. leading on from this, I do suggest you do what I'd do in this situation and 'purposely increase the tone/strength of your vocab - "IF you can prove in clear written terms that BT/Southern Electric/Thames Water/British Gas FORCE new customers in Rental properties to Pay for outstanding debts of previous defaulted tennants then I'll pay - but until such time, you EFFERS need to put the current bill from these meter readings in MY name so I can PAY you and let me and my family LIVE with some decency in this so called G8 country becuase right now your in my opinion b*llshit request to pay off other peoples debt before I can live decently with my family is causing me mass distress and I will look at using lawyers to sue you for incorrect info at that time" & " put me through now to a manager, I dont care about waiting, you've caused me enugh grief and I'm not leaving until I get a clear resolution"

Hopefully this will get them to sort their act out.

I think you'd be able to clear this up without the use of a lawyer - but I know that given your recent arrival, and the fact you have concerns with your missus's disability and needing to work, you may not have time.

You say you work for one of the Big 4, the Big 4 all used to be clients of the companies I used to work for - I do know that you will have very knowledgable people within your company you could ask for help and clarification with, both direct and indirectly - speak to people while you are at work, your manager of course and let them know of this insane situation these companies are telling you you're in.

I'm not 100% sure on how the Credit scoring agencies work with Rental Property addresses, but I seem to recall a brief discussion whereby they do know that the address has previously been used by a defaulter - and from that it seems they know they can't lower your credit rating becuase of it.

Lastly, once you do get things straightened out, please ensure you write a really really nasty but firm letter to each of them and mention that you are feeling extremely let down (dont push/threat legal action in the first letter) and see if they offer some compensation, or if you do feel strongly enough about it, speak to a lawyer, who'll advise if you should indeed go for the juggular and threaten legal recourse for their EFFups and see what their response is.

Good luck once again mate, hope it gets sorted out asap for you

Cheers DtM! West London & Slough UK!

For the credit rating, thank you so much for the information. I was worried because I know there is no unique “identifier” (such as SSN) for the credit reporting agencies (CRA) in UK to track bad debt other than the address. However, it seems that even though this is the case, the CRA have a process in place to DIFFERENTIATE between 2 persons that lived in the same address (one with bad credit and the other with good / or no credit). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Lanwarrior (and others in rental accommodation)

When it comes to obtaining credit or credit history, I just spoke with my company's Head of Risk/Credit and she stated you should IN NO WAY be connected to the previous tenant when trying to obtain credit in the future.  That the issue about using an address as one of the big considerations regarding credit was modified about 18 months ago. She did say that you could do a "correction to file" but contacting Equifax or Experian and requesting a credit report, Lanwarrior in your case, you are so new over here so you won't have anything on your report BUT once you have requested the report and receive it you can then make a "correction to the file", meaning they will allow you to make a statement saying that you were in no way connected to the previous tenant. Again she stressed that you should not be affected by the previous tenant but if you put the correction to the file message on your report, that message would stand out when underwriters are reviewing your credit report (kind of an extra piece of mind). Again, I know credit history is a bit premature for you but just thought I would mention this because it may be helpful to you and others reading this thread.

Best of luck in getting this sorted out...do keep us posted!

I have just spoken with my husband about this, an Englishman who had lived in London for a decade. He got really excited about this. He says:

This is a scam. He has seen this happen to other people before.

The claims made by the agency, your landlord, and all the utility companies are outrageous and you should not give any of these people a penny.

It is the landlord's responsibility to deal with the bills from past tenants who have not paid their bills, and they are trying to scam you. The utility companies don't care where the money comes from - they just want to get paid - and they will try to coerce people, especially unwitting foreigners, into paying other people's bills.

If you signed a lease on a property that does not have basic utilities, not only do you not owe anyone anything, you are proabbly owed money.

Do not pay your rent and move out ASAP.

And....call the Citizen's Advice Bureau and they will help you.

Hi C S

Speaking as a landlord and speaking from experience where this has happened to me, my responsibility stretches as far as calling the utility companies, giving them a date when the last idiots moved out and putting the bill in my name for which I'll be responsible for. I am certainly NOT RESPONSIBLE for the outstanding amount.

When I find new tennants, I simply do the same procedure above and transfer the utility bill into my new tennants name. I am then responsible for paying off anything I owe up to the date I tell them new tennants have moved in.

The first thing every utility company will ask is 'Do you have a forwarding address for the people who've moved out and owe us X amount?' - usually the answer will be no, it's then up to the UTILITY company to mark that persons name on their blacklist in case they show up at another address.

If the utility companies indeed 'try to get new people in the UK to pay for previous bad debt' that not a scam, I'd say that thats a Criminal offence. No, I don't beleive for a second that utility companies have an internal charter to 'scam' people, there would have been uproar.

I'd say that maybe in some cases, when speaking to them, some people may have 'thought' the utility company were trying to scam them - but more than likely have got the gist slightly incorrect.

Your advice of 'do not pay your rent and move out asap' is also relatively unfounded if you have signed a tenancy agreement - you then have broken it and will therefore be open to legal proceedings against you.

Lanwarrior (and anyone else in a similar predicament) whilst what I and many of us say is what 'should' be happening by the book, and in due course will and should be sorted out, there is always the 'lets just try and scam/fiddle myself out of the situation route i/e let me just up and go without paying rent, utilities etc etc etc - be wary of that, things do have a habit of sneakin back up to bite you on yer ars* later on.

I'll let onto you all something I came across when a guy deliberatly didn't pay me rent and was always making up excuses. Once he'd left finally and with me only having around 20% of the money he owed, I put it down to 'experience' with dodgy tenant(s) - lo and behold about 2 months later, I happened to find in amongst some papers left in a kitchen drawer, his employers (agency) details, an address in the country he was from, some personal papers, another address in a nearby town (where he was also scamming the landlord) and phone numbers etc.

I 'arranged' with the help of the agency how to find him, they 'arranged' a visit to thier office where I was waiting, I'll never forget the look on his face when he saw me. Lets just say although I couldnt get anymore money out of him, i set him straight on a few points..

Hope you sort your stuff out soon lanwarrior!
cheers! DtM! West London & Slough UK!