Gentle Reminder: Citizenship Review

i expected international migration to be difficult.  what i didn't expect is the govt constantly moving the bar, changing the requirements, increasing the fees way above an understandable increase. 

i agree the UK seems seems "better" than the US system (having never navigated the US system).  the UK reconginzes Unmarried partnerships, relatively straightforward route for financees & spouses, etc.

While I agree that people seem to be shocked at how hard it is for me to live in the UK legally, is it really that surprising? The US has a system that is difficult as well, we don't allow people to just come over and live, legally, without jumping through hoops as well, and paying high fees, so should it really be that surprising?

A lot of Americans have no idea how arduous the US immigration system is, so you can get the same issue on either side of the pond.

i agree the UK seems seems "better" than the US system (having never navigated the US system).  the UK reconginzes Unmarried partnerships, relatively straightforward route for financees & spouses, etc.

I think it's interesting to compare the systems- the UK still has the edge in some areas (ie unmarried partners, points system for skilled migration, much more straightforward process if you live in a fast track country like the US) but to be honest, I don't hear US officials doing things like trying to change the definition of US citizenship or putting more restrictions on permanent residency.  The US can and does muck about with the visa issuing process all the time (IMBRA anyone?), but once you pass all the hurdles and get your 10-year green card and/or your US citizenship, that's it.  Currently, that's the case in the UK as well, but if they change it, I don't think I'd be able to say that the UK system was "better" than the US any longer.

To me, it doesn't really matter if one is better than the other.  If we were trying to move to the US I would be up in arms about all the nonsense in the US system, too. 

I don't mean that to be snarky, by the way.   

The government will only use the USA in comparative analysis when it suits their interests, as in raising the fees.

In general however, comparative analysis doesn't work because the two countries are so radically different. 

A lot of Americans have no idea how arduous the US immigration system is, so you can get the same issue on either side of the pond.

No, they don't, but most seem very surprised at the ease of which my husband was able to get an unconditional Green Card. While the process took longer and involved a medical exam, it was certainly cheaper than my ILR and the paperwork for each was roughly the same, though we didn't have to provide 20 pieces of post to support our relationship to US immigration.

Immigration is never easy, but it is unfortunate that the UK government is seeking target groups that are not really the "problem".

Considering that according to public opinion, immigrants are all either illegals/asylum seekers or millionaire tax-evaders siphoning money out of the country, I think a start would be getting numbers on the percentage of immigrants in each category - work permit, HSMP, family, formation, asylum - an estimated percentage of illegals shold also be included, and then maybe even a deeper dig into sources of income. If the majority of immigrant income comes from legal paid work, telling immigrants they have to do 2 years of community service is going to be detrimental in terms of tax revenue  lost. (Would also appeal to the segment that believe that immigrants sit around and collect benefits.)

Also, I took a very quick look at the ECHR and found:

ARTICLE 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude.
No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour.
For the purpose of this article the term forced or compulsory labour' shall not include:
(a) any work required to be done in the ordinary course of detention imposed according to the provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or during conditional release from such detention;
(b) any service of a military character or, in case of conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognized, service exacted instead of compulsory military service;
(c) any service exacted in case of an emergency or calamity threatening the life or well-being of the community;
(d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations.

Italics mine.

If the government is going to use the justification that community service would be part of normal civic obligations, then wouldn't it have to apply to all UK citizens, including those born in the UK?

Just a thought.

Ah, but what forms "normal civic obligations"?  I pay my council tax, which helps provide services even to those who are exempt or pay less council tax than I do.  I also donate to two different charities monthly by Direct Debit.  I own two rescue cats from the RSPCA.  We use a milkman and buy from the local butcher, to help the local economy.  And I work full time and pay my taxes so that others may sit at home and gather benefits.

So what else, exactly, could this Government possibly want from me, aside from the results of an absurd Life in the UK Test and £1,500 + in order for my sons and I to become citizens??

(Rant not directed at you, sweetpeach!)

In general however, comparative analysis doesn't work because the two countries are so radically different. 

nope, in general it doesn't, but for me it's just natural since I'm the immigrant- the comparison between the immigration systems was actually a relevant factor for me in choosing where we wanted to live.  it's not a factor for everyone, but it was for me.

Has anyone actually sat down and thought about how the "community service" would work in practice?

If people have to leave their paid jobs to do volunteer work, how will they be provided with food and shelter?  (I'm guessing with taxpayers money.)

What about people who are parents or have other caring duties? Is the government going to pay for childminders or carers?

What happens to employers who have to give up skilled members of staff? Do they get compensated for the reduction in productivity? (If not, will this make employers reluctant to hire non-citizens?)

HI,

Not sure if anyone else has picked up on this....but prior to getting ILR in Nov of this year, I was not ALLOWED to do volunteer work. (My work permit visa said that I would have to get permission from the Home Office to do any work (including voluntary) other than for the employer for which my work permit was issued.)

Crazy!!!

I hope this doesn't pass! I've already been caught up in the moving goal posts of 4 to 5 years for ILR ...and I'm guessing at this rate that the 655 fee for Citizenship will increase yet again before I'm eligible in Nov 08!!

Happy New Year to All!

I have to agree that the US process is quite involved but I actually found it pretty easy if you can follow directions.  At least we don't have to do community service just to get Citizenship.

Not sure if anyone else has picked up on this....but prior to getting ILR in Nov of this year, I was not ALLOWED to do volunteer work. (My work permit visa said that I would have to get permission from the Home Office to do any work (including voluntary) other than for the employer for which my work permit was issued.)

Work Permit holders can take supplementary employment if in the same field of work as the work permit work - as long as it is payrolled and not at a senior level.  But we have had the 'volunteering' discussion before - if you had wanted to help out in a Charity shop or the local Scouts, I do not believe that you would have been in breach of the visa.


Vicky

Here's the link to the report on this subject by Ruth Kelly and Liam Byrne, 'A Common Place':

http://fabians.org.uk/fsblob/176.pdf

I wish I'd known about the need to 'earn' citizenship last year when I actually had time to volunteer...But the report also suggests being able to earn points by doing really well in English tests (I'm an English Lit grad...maybe my knowledge of 19th century novels will earn me some points?  ) and by earning lots of money. Of course it doesn't mention what normal folk on middling incomes with no spare time can do to earn their keep.

On a side note, it also says that the US doesn't allow dual nationality...?? I'm guessing that's not true in practice, since there are so many US/UK citizens.

The U.S. didn't used to allow it, they do now, unless you need to go for a top secret security clearance.