Daily Mail article on Americanisms ruining the English language

Yes they (we!) certainly do. It is not a made up word, and has a very respectable history.

I never said it didn't. I'm sure it is a very important, vital word. I was just asking the question. 

Exactly. You said that if anyone does speak like that, they sound like idiots. Is there really a difference between saying "You're an idiot" and "you sound like an idiot?" Anyone would be equally insulted by either.
I do see your perspective. Before I studied linguistics, I was a prescriptivist terror myself.  Please do not take me on for supposedly thinking that all opinions other than mine are incorrect in a thread in which you keep calling people's language incorrect. Are you seeing the contradiction in what you're saying yet?

No, I didn't. I clearly said that people would *sound* like idiots if they speak incorrectly. Do you not see that??

And, frankly, I'm getting fed up of defending myself against someone who's obviously unwilling to see any viewpoint except his/her own.

You say no grammar is incorrect? And yet it seems that all opinions other than yours are incorrect.

Lighten up.

BintIlBeled - What country is it that you come from/live in/study in?  Sorry but I'm a bit in the dark since you joined a forum that is for American expats living in the UK with no introductions and the only thread you've commented on is in regards to the usage of the English language.  I'm assuming from some of your incorrect statements that you are studying/live in/from America with no experience with UK English??  Just wanted to point out that there are vast differences in UK and US English and the opinions/education of most people on this forum is concerning both forms of English and grammar and it seems your opinion is quite one-sided.

Exactly. You said that if anyone does speak like that, they sound like idiots. Is there really a difference between saying "You're an idiot" and "you sound like an idiot?"

Yes.

Before I studied linguistics, I was a prescriptivist terror myself.  

Thanks again.

Why do you assume that nobody here is as learned and wise and educated as you are. It would be amusing if it weren't so insulting.

Are you seeing the contradiction in what you're saying yet?

Have you not noticed the contradiction in what you're saying??

You don't think other opinions are incorrect? You've repeatedly told people on this thread that they're wrong, that they don't know what they're talking about, that they'd know better if only they had the advanced linguistic knowledge that only you possess, yada yada yada.

Enough.

BintIlBeled - What country is it that you come from/live in/study in?  Sorry but I'm a bit in the dark since you joined a forum that is for American expats living in the UK with no introductions and the only thread you've commented on is in regards to the usage of the English language.  I'm assuming from some of your incorrect statements that you are studying/live in/from America with no experience with UK English??  Just wanted to point out that there are vast differences in UK and US English and the opinions/education of most people on this forum is concerning both forms of English and grammar and it seems your opinion is quite one-sided.

My perspective and education on this subject comes primarily from UK sources.
Can you point out which of my statements are incorrect, please? I'm not sure what this has to do with American v. UK English either -- nothing I've said has been about something being correct in the UK but not in America or vice versa. You also seem to be suggesting in this post that UK English is correct and American English is not?

I'm just about prepared to leave this discussion as I'd rather speak with people who are knowledgable on both the prescriptivist and descriptivist viewpoints. Believe me I know both. Apparently it's not okay for linguists to educate non-linguists about their subject of study.

Historyenne: You are using linguistic terminology incorrectly. Any form of English is a "dialect".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dialect

di·a·lect  (d-lkt)
n.
1.
a. A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.
b. A variety of language that with other varieties constitutes a single language of which no single variety is standard: the dialects of Ancient Greek.
2. The language peculiar to the members of a group, especially in an occupation; jargon: the dialect of science.
3. The manner or style of expressing oneself in language or the arts.
4. A language considered as part of a larger family of languages or a linguistic branch. Not in scientific use: Spanish and French are Romance dialects.


dialect [ˈdaɪəˌlɛkt]
n
(Linguistics)
a.  a form of a language spoken in a particular geographical area or by members of a particular social class or occupational group, distinguished by its vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation
b.  a form of a language that is considered inferior the farmer spoke dialect and was despised by the merchants
c.  (as modifier) a dialect word
[from Latin dialectus, from Greek dialektos speech, dialect, discourse, from dialegesthai to converse, from legein to talk, speak]
dialectal  adj

dialect
a variety of a language peculiar to a particular region or group within a larger community, usually but not always existing in the spoken form only. — dialectal, adj.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/dialect?view=uk

dialect

/dilekt/

  • noun a form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group.

  — DERIVATIVES dialectal adjective.

Before I studied linguistics, I was a prescriptivist terror myself. 

Ah, I understand now.  You are speaking with the fervour of the converted. 

I never said it didn't. I'm sure it is a very important, vital word. I was just asking the question. 

Well not vital -- just interesting!  One thing I read today about the distinction between careening and careering was that writers almost always wrote "careen" and copy-editors almost always change the word to "career"!!  (Not sure if that just happens in the UK, or in the US also.)

Anyway you could definitely scrape any barnacles off the bottom of the first car in line here. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/motoring/article-1126874/Pictured-The-Mini-pile-careering-Jaguar-smashes-small-car-4x4.html

(Or should that be "scrape any barnacle off of the bottom.."??)

Historyenne, you've shot yourself in the foot again. The linguistic definition of "dialect" is right there in your post. Four times. According to all those definitions, Standard English is a dialect. Please see Tremula's post.

Goodbye.

I'm just about prepared to leave this discussion as I'd rather speak with people who are knowledgable on both the prescriptivist and descriptivist viewpoints.

I fit that description, and I'll wager Chary does too.  We simply come down on the side of the prescriptivists.  

Apparently it's not okay for linguists to educate non-linguists about their subject of study.

If you could trouble yourself to establish your credentials, then I might be more receptive to the idea of being "educated" by you.  Or I might not.  

Historyenne, you've shot yourself in the foot again. The linguistic definition of "dialect" is right there in your post. Four times. According to all those definitions, Standard English is a dialect. Please see Tremula's post.

I did see it, and am unconvinced.  Which of my definitions supports your view?


(edited to remove off topic comments-HG)

Can you point out which of my statements are incorrect, please? I'm not sure what this has to do with American v. UK English either -- nothing I've said has been about something being correct in the UK but not in America or vice versa. You also seem to be suggesting in this post that UK English is correct and American English is not?

I know it wasn't your point, but when you say things that aren't true (like "We don't even use "thou" anymore" as an example) it makes the credibility of everything else you are saying lesser.  Also, I never implied one form of English was correct or not...I just said that you make incorrect statements.

I'm just about prepared to leave this discussion as I'd rather speak with people who are knowledgable on both the prescriptivist and descriptivist viewpoints. Believe me I know both. Apparently it's not okay for linguists to educate non-linguists about their subject of study.


I think I'm done here. Tremula, you carry on.

If your goal in joining a forum dedicated to immigration was to have an intellectual conversation with experts in linguistics, I think you got lost somewhere.

Actually, I agree with BintIlBeled on this, although I'm also not sure why BintIlBed is posting here in the first place.

The "standard" form of a language is a dialect of that language.

It develops over time, and its rules change over time, just as the rules change for all dialects.

By the way, some people in Yorkshire still use a form of "thou". So what was once part of a standard dialect is now part of a non-standard dialect.

for linguists to educate non-linguists

 

(moderator hat on)...Okay everyone, it looks like things are getting a bit personal here, I am just having a look now and will delete off topic comments...please keep future comments on topic-- it is an interesting debate, let's just keep it a pleasant one

Well not vital -- just interesting!  One thing I read today about the distinction between careening and careering was that writers almost always wrote "careen" and copy-editors almost always change the word to "career"!!  (Not sure if that just happens in the UK, or in the US also.)

Anyway you could definitely scrape any barnacles off the bottom of the first car in line here. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/motoring/article-1126874/Pictured-The-Mini-pile-careering-Jaguar-smashes-small-car-4x4.html

(Or should that be "scrape any barnacle off of the bottom.."??)

Oh, yes, Nightdragon, I agree! I love learning new words and usage and comparing/contrasting them between well, in this case, the US and UK. My comment was not directed at you.

I think careered is similar to "whinge" and "sledge"- close to the American word, but not quite (or vice versa depending on your perspective). As a side note, the only thing I think of whenever I hear "sledge" is the song "Sledge Hammer" from the 80's.

ETA: That photo is crazy!! Good thing no was in any of the other 2 cars. Sucks for the person who was getting the car delivered, though! Oops!

I was thinking of something funny - I didn't understand 'fancy dress' when I moved over here as being a costume party kind of thing!  I thought it meant I had to wear something like what you might wear to a wedding, semi-formal, etc.  Lol!  I still get laughs from DH when I ask if I have to dress up 'fancy' for something, because it so means something completely different to me!

The 'careered' thing - this was the first I've heard of that!  Oh, on a similar note, I've heard people here say that someone 'cut me up' in traffic, rather than they 'cut me off'.  (I think that's what they say or is it some other variation?)  That makes me laugh too!