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Topic: Protests in London.  (Read 5297 times)

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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 09:23:27 PM »
Damn right Historyenne!

The UK and the US can never ever ever go back to making kettles, or being some bucolic agro-based economy, with some rich white Etonian dude strolling around playing Lord of the manor. We will hold our own against China and India by developing new technologies and green energy systems and medical advances, and yes by leading the world in communications and cultural advancement. This can only be accomplished with a workforce educated up to the ears.

Darwin, Attenborough, Shakespeare, Newton, J.J. Thompson, Hawkins, Watson & Crick, that guy who invented the internet, that's what Great Britain is about.

I'd much rather ride on bumpy roads....
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2010, 09:43:26 PM »
I have a hard time feeling empathetic given my own student loans and the fact that I don't think university education is a fundamental free right.

And I have NO sympathy after people started vandalising.  Why not use that time to WORK and then you won't have a problem paying.

One wonders about the effects the fees jump will have overall.  Fewer people able to attend university and probably unable to get jobs.  Fewer students at unis and colleges would mean fewer lecturers needed, so more of them looking for jobs as well. Not to mention support staff.

I am not sure there will be fewer students though.  Wasn't the big complaint this year how there were tons more applications than spaces to fill? 


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2010, 09:47:10 PM »
But overseas fees are going up too.  Alright for students from oil-rich countries perhaps.

There's never been a cap on international fees though. Universities were always free to charge what they wanted for Non-EU students. They go up every year anyway.

One interesting thing to consider is if the coalition sacks or limits post-graduate visas, will that change the numbers of Non-EU nationals of wanting to study in the UK?

 
The UK and the US can never ever ever go back to making kettles, or being some bucolic agro-based economy, with some rich white Etonian dude strolling around playing Lord of the manor. We will hold our own against China and India by developing new technologies and green energy systems and medical advances, and yes by leading the world in communications and cultural advancement. This can only be accomplished with a workforce educated up to the ears.

that guy who invented the internet, that's what Great Britain is about.

Quick note, if I'm correct, the person you're talking about is TimBL. He invented the World Wide Web, not the internet. Al Gore invented the internet (sarcasm!) :P ;)

While I'm all for an educated population, I think we are in long need of a education revolution. I'm a strong believer that not everyone should need to go to college/university. The structure of universities need to change because all we're producing is academic inflation. You now need an MA or Doctorate where before a BA would have made you stand out.

If you look at the most famous success stories like Gates, Dell, Mary Kay Ash, etc, many of those people didn't attend or finish university. Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't go to uni, but success is almost never solely determined by one's university education. Those successful people were naturally driven and clever, such skill can't be taught at university. I'm saying that we shouldn't make young people believe that they absolutely need university education in order to be successful. Go to a good uni, get good marks and then you will get a good job and have a happy ending, it's a lie that we sell to students to the tune of £3,000-£9,000 a year  :(
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 09:50:58 PM by rynn_aka_rae »
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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2010, 10:25:41 PM »
...I don't think university education is a fundamental free right.

I totally agree with this. I'd rather my tax dollars go towards providing 'free' healthcare to everyone than university fees.

One wonders about the effects the fees jump will have overall.  Fewer people able to attend university and probably unable to get jobs.  Fewer students at unis and colleges would mean fewer lecturers needed, so more of them looking for jobs as well. Not to mention support staff.

Numbers of students are higher than ever right now and lecturers and support staff are still losing their jobs. If higher education continues to be funded at the level it is now, whole universities could be shut down due to lack of funding. At the very least departments would be cut (most likely the humanities) or absorbed into other larger departments. That's been happening for years already.


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2010, 10:37:41 PM »
I don't think university education is a "fundamental free right."  However, I do think that when people have studied hard and earned the necessary grades to be accepted to a university, then they shouldn't have to spend the next thirty years of their lives paying for it.  If the fees are increased and there's no grant system for low-income people, then education will only be obtainable for the very rich, which would make social mobility even more difficult, and there's a big enough gap between rich and poor in this country already. 

I'd rather my tax dollars go towards providing 'free' healthcare to everyone than university fees.

I'd like to see mine go to free healthcare AND university fees. 
On s'envolera du même quai
Les yeux dans les mêmes reflets,
Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

Je t'aimais, je t'aime, et je t'aimerai.

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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2010, 10:55:27 PM »
I don't think university education is a "fundamental free right."  However, I do think that when people have studied hard and earned the necessary grades to be accepted to a university, then they shouldn't have to spend the next thirty years of their lives paying for it.  If the fees are increased and there's no grant system for low-income people, then education will only be obtainable for the very rich, which would make social mobility even more difficult, and there's a big enough gap between rich and poor in this country already.  

If those who could afford to pay the fees, paid for their education, then this could free up tax dollars to provide schemes for low-income people to receive subsidies for free education.


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2010, 11:10:10 PM »
The problem with saying that only "certain people" should be permitted to attend university is what do you do with the people who aren't "certain people". There is no formalized apprenticeship program here, equivalent to university, which would help those who would prefer to work in a skilled trade to become a mechanic, plumber, etc.

By raising the tuition fees, they're pricing out the poorer kids, or those who maybe weren't mature enough to do fantastic during standard education but who would do really well in university.

That's one thing I've loved about the UK - the equality of the price of education, and the affordability.


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2010, 11:13:31 PM »
If those who could afford to pay the fees, paid for their education, then this could free up tax dollars to provide schemes for low-income people to receive subsidies for free education.

What about middle class people?  The ones who are too poor to afford massive fees but too well-off to get subsidies?  It used to be that people like that could "work their way through college," with a part time job during the term and a full time one during the summer that earned enough to pay for their education.  With wages so low and fees so high that hasn't been possible for a long time (in the US anyway), and I think it's a shame.  

I don't think a university education is a right, and I don't think it should be necessary for everyone to go.  I think that there should be good jobs available for people who are not cut out for academics, and I think that everyone who is qualified for university and willing to work hard for their education should be able to get that education without incurring massive debt.  And I very, very firmly believe that education should not be just for the rich and those poor enough to be subsidized.  
On s'envolera du même quai
Les yeux dans les mêmes reflets,
Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

Je t'aimais, je t'aime, et je t'aimerai.

--Francis Cabrel


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2010, 12:13:03 AM »
If you look at the most famous success stories like Gates, Dell, Mary Kay Ash, etc, many of those people didn't attend or finish university. Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't go to uni, but success is almost never solely determined by one's university education. Those successful people were naturally driven and clever, such skill can't be taught at university. I'm saying that we shouldn't make young people believe that they absolutely need university education in order to be successful. Go to a good uni, get good marks and then you will get a good job and have a happy ending, it's a lie that we sell to students to the tune of £3,000-£9,000 a year  :(

The trouble is selling that to employers. These days you need a bachelors degree (in anything) to get a decent job. My husband faced problems when we arrived here getting a job in sales - even though he had years of successful experience in the states. Recruiters would not put him forward without a degree. The job I have specifies that you must have a degree, but it's a glorified admin position with travel to Scunthorpe and other, equally interesting, destinations.

Until employers wake up and realise that what they want is an articulate person with drive rather than just any old body with any old degree, job related or not, young people will need to go to uni to secure halfway decent jobs.

I'm pleased to see students protesting. I kind of think it's a rite of passage.

Edited to rite my right


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2010, 09:03:06 AM »
What about middle class people?  The ones who are too poor to afford massive fees but too well-off to get subsidies?  It used to be that people like that could "work their way through college," with a part time job during the term and a full time one during the summer that earned enough to pay for their education.  With wages so low and fees so high that hasn't been possible for a long time (in the US anyway), and I think it's a shame.  

I don't think a university education is a right, and I don't think it should be necessary for everyone to go.  I think that there should be good jobs available for people who are not cut out for academics, and I think that everyone who is qualified for university and willing to work hard for their education should be able to get that education without incurring massive debt.  And I very, very firmly believe that education should not be just for the rich and those poor enough to be subsidized.  

Of course education should not just be for the rich and the subsidized poor. The situation with middle class people would remain the same. Like Ksand24 said in her situation, they'd have to take out loans. If you really want to get an education, you'll do whatever you have to do to make that happen. I was one of those middle class people in the US that were too 'rich' to be eligible for grants, but my parents couldn't afford all of my fees. If I wanted to go to college, I knew I'd have to take out loans and work part time during the semester and full time in the summer. My parents feel guilty about this. Why? I knew that was what was going to have to happen for me to go. Yes, I'm still paying my student loans (and it sucks), but an education is invaluable.

I know they're trying, but UK universities really need to use their alumni connections. Donations and endowments allow for scholarship programs, both university-wide and through their departments. It would help alleviate some of their reliance on government-funding and allow them to become more self-sufficient. 


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2010, 09:34:15 AM »
If you really want to get an education, you'll do whatever you have to do to make that happen. I was one of those middle class people in the US that were too 'rich' to be eligible for grants, but my parents couldn't afford all of my fees. If I wanted to go to college, I knew I'd have to take out loans and work part time during the semester and full time in the summer.
This is me...When I wanted to go to school at 19 I tried for grants but no go and since your parents are responsible for your education (US) until you are 24/25 I would not be able to get these at all.  I waited until I was 23 to go to school and I paid and am still paying for it.  I did university in 3 years and keep A/B level and worked full time - I busted my butt, although I do wonder why since I don't use my degree.  I was of the mind frame do whatever you have to get thru school and I was so dumb I charged it on credit cards <dumb dumb dumb>.  I wanted to teach in Juvenile detention centers but was told off the record I was young, female and blonde so don't count on that...
My sisters are now in school and loans out the ying yang and my youngest sister is on food stamps and battling for healthcare in OR for her MS.
So how I see it is you can either bite the bullet and DO IT or don't.

I believe I saw somewhere Uni here (UK) costs them 6/7K a year but people were paying 3K so the international students were picking up the rest of the bill.  Fair Enough but those international students bring in the big bucks and I wouldn't hike them to high or they would lose that money as well.
Even in the states I have a problem with going out of state to pay insane amount more money just to cross a state line.  I do agree here they need some type of grant system not for poor students but for bright students.  Bust butt, get the grade and get a scholarship/grant.
DH back in the day did an apprenticeship program and got paid very little but did pay for the schooling and has made a living out of this.  According to him this country the youth won't do those programs but those jobs NEED to be filled such as Plumber/Contractors/Electricians ect...I tend to agree we make everything about technology and expect the youth to go to Uni and learn technology but forget not everyone is made out for that there are other fields but no one speaks of that. Not every person can go into IT management and expect to get a job.

I am all for free or income based health care and income based tuition and it not being free because IMO the UK has a system based on the benefit system and have become accustomed to it but that's another political discussion ;-)


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2010, 12:36:49 PM »
I am pretty torn about how I feel about the tuition hike.

Part of my problem is that I live in a white middle class town. Of all my friends and all of my husbands friends, only one of them had a part time job throughout his University career.
My DH was given a needs-based scholarship to a top 10 university for 2 out of 3 years because his mother did not work for those two years and his father made just under £40,000. My DH also took out a loan which does have a low fixed rate interest, but he does not have to pay it when he is off work. He never had a job through out Uni.

My family situation was very close to DH's but I couldn't get a needs based scholarship/aid in the US. I worked two jobs throughout college to pay for my living expenses, while working my ass off to get good enough grades to receive academic/leadership scholarships. Oh and my tuition fees were raised EVERY year. My last semester cost $4,000+ more than my first.

Do I think that the US model is good? No way. I would have loved to just chilled, not worked two jobs throughout college and have been able to afford a gap year after. I would have also liked to pay off my student loans before my 35th birthday. Or at least have a loan that is not akin to a criminal offense to skip a payment. The UK system is preferable and doesn't set up kids for a lifetime of debt like the US one does.

-But- I have a real hard time sympathizing with some of the most privileged kids in the world (with regards to healthcare, welfare, etc) engaging in violence over university fees that lots of people could only dream of having.

[Sorry, I don't want to sound offensive, but I just saw some footage and photos of the damage and was annoyed]
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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2010, 01:22:42 PM »
Lots of people are saying they find it hard to sympathize with the U.K. students, because they've got it so much worse in terms of student debt.  I have $70K+ in student debt, and I can totally sympathize.

It won't stop anyone from going to uni in the first place, because when you show those sorts of numbers to a teenager, it doesn't compute.  But it's going to have a major impact on their futures, nonetheless. 

I pay more each month on my student loan than some people do on mortgages.  It killed any plans I had for post-graduate education.  It prevents me from owning property, and certainly cuts into my disposable income.  It's even a fairly major consideration in deciding whether or not we can afford to start a family.  Millions of people in the same situation can't help but have a huge, weakening effect on the economy. 

The only good part of the whole thing is that the U.K. is being a bit more sensible in predicating pay-back rates on income level.  It means that people who want to go into lower-paying but socially important fields won't have such a deterrent.  But since the overall budget cuts mean that a lot of those jobs won't exist anymore anyway, it's not all that helpful.

So, yes, I feel very sorry indeed, not just for U.K. students, but for the U.K. in general.  They seem to think that, in this particular, they should be trying to be more like the American system, and I wouldn't wish that on any country.


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2010, 01:37:42 PM »
I just can't help but look at this from a societal view. Study after study show that as a country's literacy rate increases, so does its economic health and democratic values. Democracy itself demands an educated population because people have to know what they are doing when they pull the lever.

The reason we have free primary education has nothing at all to do with the morality of whether Jane or Bill can read. People just realized that if you teach children to read and compute maths, society as a whole benefits. During the industrial revolution this sufficed. Employees had to be able to read an instruction sheet and count out the widgets or what have you. It helped that when at home a person could read a newspaper and balance the household budget. It helped that people now could begin to understand things like history and art because these things help keep society peaceful.

This has all changed. They work too cheap in China plain and simple. Widget punching is gone – at least the old way of punching widgets. Now it is true that every member of society isn't a widget maker, but the fact remains that in the last 40 years jobs, good jobs, which only require a basic understanding of English and maths have moved to the east.

A mitigating factor in this occurrence is that a higher proportion of youth have gone on to complete university degrees. Women in particular have seen the value of higher education and have across the boards fared much better than males.

We need a sharp workforce now more than ever. We need to bolster critical thinking and analysis, the kinds of things you learn in university. As a whole we need to raise education levels, knowing that while some kids may choose not to go to university, and do just fine, that society will prosper if we keep getting a higher proportion of people educated to a higher level. It pays off, and will ward off the kinds of tough consequences we face if the economy of the world keeps changing as is predicted.

But moreso I hold the opinion that one can never stop learning, and I believe that liberal studies are the most important subjects to a nation's well being. They teach a kid to ask 'why?' instead of just 'how?' and they help one understand the truths of history and of how we came to be where we are and where we are going. Above all they instill an understanding of, and the value of beauty and the great things of which mankind is capable. 

There is no way back to some half-remembered golden age, because that age never existed. Ignorance is a dark and fetid fog of intolerance and poverty and violence. Our past is that of war and discrimination and a divided society of servant and master. We can go that route, or we can choose the higher path, that of clean energy and healthy cities, of bright kids learning how to fix the stuff hanging around from that past.

Right now the western world should be in a contest, a contest to see just how smart we can be, pushing every limit of excellence to the limit.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Protests in London.
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2010, 04:46:26 PM »
I am pretty torn about how I feel about the tuition hike.

I worked two jobs throughout college to pay for my living expenses, while working my ass off to get good enough grades to receive academic/leadership scholarships. Oh and my tuition fees were raised EVERY year. My last semester cost $4,000+ more than my first.

Do I think that the US model is good? No way. I would have loved to just chilled, not worked two jobs throughout college and have been able to afford a gap year after. I would have also liked to pay off my student loans before my 35th birthday. Or at least have a loan that is not akin to a criminal offense to skip a payment. The UK system is preferable and doesn't set up kids for a lifetime of debt like the US one does.

-But- I have a real hard time sympathizing with some of the most privileged kids in the world (with regards to healthcare, welfare, etc) engaging in violence over university fees that lots of people could only dream of having.

[Sorry, I don't want to sound offensive, but I just saw some footage and photos of the damage and was annoyed]

This really kind of sums up what I'm feeling. 

I'm really torn about these things.  I was one of those folks in the US who's family was sitting in the lowest of the middle class line,  so I was extremely lucky to get pell grants, FSOG grants, etc.  I got excellent grades and earned scholarships as well. I went to state school, but also lived on campus (which 1.) I had to, there was no way I could commute 4 hours a day for my specific programme which was the only one in the state and the best one in the country, 2.) which was the best thing I could have ever done for myself on so many levels. My real world education as they say.)

So- I still ended up with student loands that I'm still paying and I still ended up working 3 jobs and all summer long to pay for tuition fees that weren't covered under my grants or loans, books, living expenses, etc.
How lovely it would have been to just focus on school, like a few of my friends- they never had to worry about jobs. 
 
While not getting grants wouldn't have stopped me from going to school, the loans would have been even worse than it is now.   Now, I dunno, but even though I am still paying for my education, I don't regret it and I am sooooo thankful for the education I recieved and I'm happy to pay for it. 

Now, how it's being done here is a bit insane and I realise that people really weren't able to plan for it-so for that I feel a bit of sympathy.  But I also realise that it's a western world problem that we can argue over tuition instead of worrying about getting our next meal so for that, it seems insane. 

So really, I'm torn.   


 
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