Long story, need advice on visitor visa and more

I have a girl friend in the USA, it's a long story but I need advice.

I met online with a girl through a support forum (mdjunction.com) in June 2009. She had been raped twice within 2 years before this, one was particularly bad as it involved a 15 hour kidnap, but she lived. I on the other hand is partially sighted and I'm losing my sight over a slow period of time. The support site also had a depression forum and on that forum we started talking and one thing led to another.

She was married in Feb 2009 to a man she'd been with for 5 years, the rapes in question resulted in a new born girl from the rape. Since the rape the relationship was on the rocks, he was very abusive man (sexually, mentally and violenlty) the marriage was a last ditch attempt to makes things work.

My input via speaking with her didn't help, this led to them breaking up. I visited her in California (her state) in Feb 2010 for 3 weeks. I left her at the time because I had work commitment. The abuse over the coming months after that was getting very bad, so I made arrangements with work to have 2 months unpaid leave. I visit the girl again in May 2010 for a month, I paid for the girl then to come back with me for 4 months to the UK, June - October the 4th, I went back with her for a month until November the 5th. My girl friend has been in the USA since then until now for 3 months.

Before she left for England she divorced her husband she was having  alot of trouble with, it was an annulment which allowed it to be quick but this uncovered a complication. She was married 10 years ago, she is 28 now and had a child and got married back then. She thought she was divored, but it was never finalised in 2004, this allowed the annulment but now she has to finalise the divorce. The guy from 10 years ago will not co-operate and is making it difficult and complicated. My gf has been dealing with the current divorce and all the complications of children etc and been trying to cope with all the lifes problems for most of 2010

My girl friend (and me) want to spend another 4 and half months in England again (Mid Jan 17-20th until June 1st/2nd), we can do the divorce from here or most of it during that time, its all forms and waiting. The last four months was fun but my girl friend was really in a bad way, she was recovering from the abuse, the divorce, it was very hard to be away from her children (web cam etc was allowed a few times a week), the 4 months vanished. England and the way we live was a BIG culture shock, was hard to make the most of it and she wanted to return again in early 2010 (no dates where met then, just March ish).

The next 4 months here I hope we can make more of it, I have mobility training or plan on it in Feb and onwards if needed, its my birthday in Feb also there is a lot of bank holidays in Spring to allow us to travel the UK a lot more. We couldnt drive so were stricted to Bristol and Bath and the occational trip to theme parks and one trip Wales. 4 months is proberly the max my girl friend could be without being with her children, it was hard.

There is another complication. I May my girl friend was pulled over for speeding and she gave a false name because she didnt want to lose the car, she needed it to run the kids from her moms to her now ex a ot before she came home (Tickets were already booked). Ofc whilst she was here she was called for court but didnt know because she was here, she had a faliure to appear and when she returned in October she was arrested at the US airport. I bailed her out $5000 dollars, she had court on Dec 7th and was placed in jail until Jan 10th, she was given a 60 day sentence and $500 fine.

My girl friend has ties to the US still, she isn't empolyed and has to live with her mom or grandma until she can get her head together and on her feet. The last 4months help SO much, and we hope another trip here would make the word of difference to both of us. I will be trying to return with her on her return in in June.

In the future we hope to get married once we get her properly divorced, as this just needs to be finalised I hope I can get the paper work showing she is divorced so we can apply for a fiancee visa to Marry her and most likely she would like to apply to be a UK citizen. Live and one day work here, make a life with me. I want her to study and become more independent, her last men were overly controlling individuals.

The father currently holds all the cards for offical and unoffical custody of her children, one of the kids isn't his, we hope to make a life in the UK with frequent trips/time in the USA until we can get custody (or try). She would like to have her little girl here in the long term. Hoefully we can come to a mutual compromise with the kids rather than drag it though courts.

A lot of questions arise from this

On entry to the UK last time, my girl friend was only given 10 min questioning at the airport, I was there ofc but we didnt prepare any apaperwork or evidence other the the ticket home, she got through with a 6month Visa.

What will most likely happen if she tries to get in for 4 months this time, I've only just learned of the spent rule "constructive" rule, 6 month in 12 month period. Should I try for 3 months rather than 4 or even less?

Will this conviction have to be declared on a visitor visa, will it go against her? Will they be aware of it, I wont lie if they ask, but does it needs to be mentioned?

Will the conviction go against her or these two 4 visits or being denied  in Jan be against her for further visits or even applying for the fiancee visa.

Anyone have any concerns or advice that I cant think off that will help or I need to consider?

All this worrying is killing me. I just want to be with my girl, help her, she help me, get our lives in order, make a new one together.

[mod note - I have edited out the duplicated text here for the OP]

She should probably apply for a visitor visa before trying to enter again. Especially since she has a recent conviction and actually served jail time it is recommended that she seek prior entry clearance (apply for a visa) before trying to enter the UK again.

She will have to declare this conviction on any visa application that she makes for the next 7 years. You will also need to make sure that her probation conditions do not prohibit her from leaving her current state or county of residence for a period of time.

What can happen because of this?

Realistically she could be refused entry or a visa because she lied to the police, failed to appear in court and the has been convicted of crimes related to that.

She also would not be eligible for Naturalisation as a British Citizen until her convictions become 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act of 1974 which lists imprisonment/jail time of less than 6 months as a 7 year period.

Further information on Criminal Convictions: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/refusals/refuseoncriminalconvictions

and Further information on refusals on non conducive grounds:
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/refusals/refuseonnonconducivegrounds


I strongly suggest that you contact an immigration solicitor because what you're presenting is a VERY complicated case, especially according to your dates she's still in Jail until the 10th of this month...this would be best handled by a professional, that way you're assured of receiving advice based on the exact nature of your girlfriends situation & conviction(s).

Ok this looks very grim.

Questions

First in regards to the visitor visa.

If my girl friend got to the border with her conviction will she be asked about it, will they know about it? If she is honest and tells them will they just blow her out on the visit?

I will have to get legal advice on the Fiancee Visa for sure, I have no idea what she would get for the same offence. She got convicted for False Inpersonation or another, false information to a police officer for a potential traffic offence, where can I find this out?

You mentioned depression...are you in counseling?

No, my girl friend was the solution to the depression, now my cure could be banned from coming here lol, bloody ironic isn't it. I will end up there again at this rate, all the stress etc.

Are criminal convictions shared between the UK and US, can they fire up her details in the UK or need to fill out any forms before or on the plane like we have to for the USA.

Could my girl friend arrive here with the intention of visiting (which is %100 true), being ignorant that a conviction would be a problem, if she is asked if she has a conviction she shouldn't lie for a fact, only disclose the information if asked.

I didn't have to dig to far to find this:

We strongly advise that you apply for a visa before travelling to the UK if:

you have any unspent criminal convictions in any country including the UK;
you have an adverse UK immigration history; or
you have been warned by a UK official that you should obtain a visa prior to travelling to the UK,

It states strongly advise not to, not just a big flat no (unless you dig deeper and ask questions)

Appying for a fiancee visa is a different story, I will go through a lawyer etc. One thing that niggles is, if they do dig in to her past and see that she'd visited WITH a conviction would they see that a deception or ignorance being that she didn't have a conviction the first time she was here, the charge was brought up during her vist and not before.

I did manage to find a lawyer who was actually available at 10:30pm and he gave some advise that she will likely not be flag with this on the visit but of course there is always the chance if she is questioned or suspected of something.

How would the UK handle her offence here, what would be the maximum for lieing to a police officer for a suspected traffic offence.

Could my girl friend arrive here with the intention of visiting (which is %100 true), being ignorant that a conviction would be a problem, if she is asked if she has a conviction she shouldn't lie for a fact, only disclose the information if asked.

The fact is that she's not 'ignorant that a conviction would be a problem'. You know that it's a problem...Here's another bit of information that you probably didn't come across:

If you have any criminal convictions in your home country or in the UK you are strongly advised to obtain a visa before traveling otherwise you may not be allowed to enter the UK.

There are 2 problems with that you plan on doing.

1. Since she is still incarcerated until 10 January, you don't know what the exact terms of her release will be. Specifically, will she have to perform some sort of community service or will a term of her probation be that she is not allowed to leave the US?

If she is not allowed to leave the US then that means she cannot travel. Full Stop. As she could be facing further legal problems if she does.



2. Qualifying as a general visitor (not taking into account her criminal history):

This page explains how you can come to the United Kingdom as a general visitor.

To come to the United Kingdom as a general visitor, you must be able to show that:
■you are 18 or over;
■you only want to visit the United Kingdom for up to six months, or up to 12 months if you are accompanying an academic visitor;
■you intend to leave the United Kingdom at the end of your visit;
■you have enough money to support and accommodate yourself without working or help from public funds, or you and any dependants will be supported and accommodated by relatives or friends;
■you can meet the cost of the return or onward journey; and
■you are not in transit to a country outside the common travel area.

You must also show that, during your visit, you do not intend to:
■take employment, produce goods or provide services, including the selling of goods or services direct to members of the public;
■undertake a course of study;
■marry or form a civil partnership, or give notice of marriage or civil partnership;
■carry out the activities of a business visitor, a sports visitor or an entertainer visitor; or
■receive private medical treatment.

This page explains what documents you should have when coming to the United Kingdom as a general visitor.
They are:

■if you are employed, a letter from your employer granting leave of absence from your job for a specified period - the letter should also say how long you have been employed by that employer, in what job(s), and when you are expected back at work;
■if you are self-employed, evidence of your business activities and financial standing;
■evidence of any property you own in your home country;
■if you are a student, a letter from your school or college stating the course you are on, its start and finish dates, and the dates of the holiday period when you intend to visit the United Kingdom;
■evidence of any family or social ties and responsibilities to return to;
■evidence of any firm travel plans you have made;
■bank statements going back over a period of several months; and
■evidence of savings available to you.

2.1.9 Frequency and Duration of Visits

There is no restriction on the number of visits a person may make to the United Kingdom nor any requirement that a specified time must elapse between successive visits. The fact that a person has made a series of visits with only brief intervals between them would not, in the absence of any other relevant factors, constitute sufficient ground for refusal.

It is reasonable, however, for the immigration officer to consider the stated purpose of the visit in the light of the length of time that has elapsed since previous visits. A visitor should not, for example, normally spend more than 6 out of any 12 months in this country

She has already spent 4 months in the UK in the past 12 months. This is not a calendar year calculation but a rolling 12 months starting with the day she plans on arriving going back 12 months.

Your plans include her settling in the UK at some point and then working out the issues with her children at a later date. She has no job in the US. She has no mortgage/lease/home in the US. She has no source of income to pay for her trip. According to what you've said she doesn't even have a return ticket since you're not sure when she would return (June 1/2 you mentioned which leads me to believe that she does not have a ticket for a specific date).

All of these things combined, will be red flags to an Immigration Officer, that, along with her being an 28 year old American Woman (they don't exactly have the best reputation in the UK Immigration world) she's a prime candidate for being detained, questioned for hours, refused entry and sent back to the US on the next plane without being allowed to speak or see each other.

You keep mentioning concern for her well being. How would being put through that process affect her? When it all could be simply avoided if she applied for a visitor visa in advance at a very small cost ($118), she would need to disclose her criminal record and provide the documentation from the courts on the conviction plus anything regarding her probation conditions. However, at least you would be doing things above board without potentially creating more problems than she already has and causing you & her more distress.

She will be getting 18 month summary probation and a $580 fine, no community service.

She will have a return date, she will be getting a round trip ticket.

Doesn't that fact she's returned once and has kids a very good incentive to go back.

The last time she was here she only had a brief questioning, I was told visits you tend to get drilled if you're that "single American women". We didn't even hae letters of sponsorship or anything, was thinking she should take a few pictures and the kids birth certs.

Well after the last 3 months or mre she needs another holiday.

She will be getting 18 month summary probation and a $580 fine, no community service.

She will have a return date, she will be getting a round trip ticket.

Doesn't that fact she's returned once and has kids a very good incentive to go back.

The last time she was here she only had a brief questioning, I was told visits you tend to get drilled if you're that "single American women". We didn't even hae letters of sponsorship or anything, was thinking she should take a few pictures and the kids birth certs.

Well after the last 3 months or mre she needs another holiday.

At the end of the day, you've asked for advice and it's been given.

If you want to risk her losing the money for the flight, being detained for HOURS and thoroughly questioned, being bounced back and having it appear on her immigration record for the UK, lying to the UK authorities (a lie by omission is still a lie) and ultimately making it even more difficult, if not impossible, for her to move to the UK permanently, then you should continue on your same course of action, but no one here is going to say what you propose doing is correct.

Yes some lawyer may say it's okay (you might want to peruse some of the states people on this board have gotten into taking off hand advice from immigration lawyers they haven't researched properly), you may "get away" with it...BUT there's a huge possibility that you want AND it will all come out in the wash when she applies for a more permanent visa, you'll also have the added fun of "On the blah of blah your girlfriend entered the UK and advised us of X but actually the truth was Y".

Sounds like you both have had a hard road so far but you'll only make it harder for yourselves by lying - did you not learn this lesson when she lied to the officer on her traffic violation?

Consider doing 2 weeks in a third country together when she gets out of prison, then refocus your efforts on getting her over in the right way.

I absolutely agree with WebyJ the process of being bounced is really stressful as anyone who's been through it here will tell you and she might be in quite a fragile state after being released from jail, is it worth the risk for her mental health? I know she's a cure for your depression and you want her with you, but is it fair to put her through having to lie (even by omission) and all the stress potentially for her to be put on a tearful flight home? Poor girl.
You can't count on being lucky again because you were before...and that's all it was...luck...there are a number of people, with letters, and jobs to go back to who were only here for 2 weeks who will tell you of the grilling they got at immigration, if that happens to your girl your whole story will fall apart.

Thank you for all the replies, a lot of food for thought.

The idea of having a 2 week break in another country does sound good, will have to seriously look in to that, she would love it, I know she has ties to Italy, maybe look at that.

It did feel like luck last time when she got through, maybe me traveling back with her made a big difference I don't know. The visit just seems like a gamble, and usually I'm not a gambling man. Wish we could just go with the fiancee visa, just prep good for that via a lawyer.

Who applies for the fiancee visa? me or my girl friend?

She wanted me to book some flights whilst she was in jail, don't know how to break this news to her that I can't, we need to talk about all this. I really didn't pick up on this until a few days ago when someone just briefly say can she return this soon, then I ran across the conviction looking at 6 in 12 guideline.

Your girlfriend applies for the visa. You can find the information regarding requirements & documents that you and she will need to provide here: http://londonelegance.com/transpondia/fiance/ & http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/resources/en/docs/1903073/supportingdocssettlement

Maintenance & Accommodation Requirements:
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/maintenanceaccommodation & http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/settlementguide


You can see the entire visa application process by visiting the WorldBridge website, select United States from the Drop Down Menu and then 'How Do I apply?' from the menu on the left. There is also information on there regarding visa fees & processing times as well.


Again, before she travels make sure that she is allowed to leave the US during her probation period and that she gets that in writing from her probation officer.

Appying for a fiancee visa is a different story, I will go through a lawyer etc. One thing that niggles is, if they do dig in to her past and see that she'd visited WITH a conviction would they see that a deception or ignorance being that she didn't have a conviction the first time she was here, the charge was brought up during her vist and not before.

When presenting herself at the border she is essentially asking for leave to enter the UK (making a visa application) in person to the immigration offficer present. Keep that in mind when reading the following:

An applicant can be refused under 320(7A) if they fail to disclose a criminal conviction that is not spent and under 320(7B) if they have failed to disclose a criminal conviction in a previous leave to enter, remain or visa application.

Base upon this she would need to verbally declare her conviction to the Immigration Officer when presenting herself at the border for entry or it could be used as grounds to refuse future applications.

When presenting herself at the border she is essentially asking for leave to enter the UK (making a visa application) in person to the immigration offficer present. Keep that in mind when reading the following:
Base upon this she would need to verbally declare her conviction to the Immigration Officer when presenting herself at the border for entry or it could be used as grounds to refuse future applications.

I hope people here will take the moment to thank Debz for her research.  It's totally spot on and worth every penny of the 300 quid it would take to get the same opinion from a High Street solicitor.   

The idea of having a 2 week break in another country does sound good, will have to seriously look in to that, she would love it, I know she has ties to Italy, maybe look at that.

What are these "ties" to Italy?  If she is of Italian ancestry, it might be possible for her to get an Italian passport and therefore she won't need a spousal visa.  It's surprisingly easy to get Italian citizenship if one has ancestors from Italy, even if it goes relatively far back (great great grandfather, etc).  Certain conditions need to be met but it might be worth looking into.

I hope people here will take the moment to thank Debz for her research.  It's totally spot on and worth every penny of the 300 quid it would take to get the same opinion from a High Street solicitor.   

Debz is the queen.....just don't tell the Queen. 

Wasn't there something in the pipeline about no spent convictions for settlement?

She got a fine, jail time, and probation. That won't be spent anytime soon. Just probation in the UK is 5 years until spent. It's not based on the US sentence but the UK sentence for the crime.

Let's say she does finish out the 18 months in the US (I'm guessing immigrating to the UK is out for that time). And she applies and gets in. Two years later when the spousal visa is up, she wouldn't be able to get ILR under the no spent convictions bit. She'd have to extend her probationary visa from before.

None of us can tell you when her convictions will be spent, you would need a lawyer well versed in UK law and US law in regards to immigration.

Why the UK? If it's being together you both really want then why don't you come over to the US? It's a big country so you can choose a new state far far away to start over.