Class sizes in UK state schools!

I'm just wondering if any of the parents on here have been struck by the huge class sizes at their kids' schools in the UK. My daughter is in a class of 30, and at her next school she will be moving up to a class of 35. While classes of this size might be found at some of the larger city schools in the US, in the UK they seem to be pretty standard across the board.

I find it distressing, as I feel that it leads to my aughter 'freewheeling' and just sort of getting lost in the shuffle rather than being challenged or engaged at her level. (I realise this is not an automatic consequence of big classes, but it must surely be far more common than it would be in smaller groups.) Just curious to know if anyone else has noticed this, and whether or not you think it has affected the quality of education your kid/s receive here.

If it makes you feel any better, I was listening to Radio 4 a couple of weeks ago, and they were talking about class size.  Apparently, one of the reasons that councils are less concerned with class size than they used to be is that studies have found that, unless they can keep the numbers under about 15 students, there's no real advantage. I guess the reasoning is that, once the number of students exceeds ~15, teachers have to shift to the larger group teaching methods anyway.   In that case, having a class with 22 students isn't significantly different to a class with 42 students. So 5 kids more or less isn't likely to impact the amount of individual attention your daughter gets in class, if they're correct.

It bothers me a lot!

Same situation with my daughter and while her reading is well above national curriculum, her maths skills are lacking AND they just move on if she doesn't get something. I have had to do a lot of work myself with her at home.

Interesting post, woadgrrl -- I have been reading a recent study that examined the idea of class size, and found that although a large class is not a disaster, and can be handled well by a goiod teacher, there are basically no advantages to a big class and that particular in areas like teacher satisfaction and individual attention, small classes are better. If you want to see the study (which focuses on KS2 age kids), just do a google search for 'class size study KS2' and the PDF is right there as the first or second hit.

grace -- I've been doing a lot of work at home with my daughter in the evenings, which she really enjoys. I give her 10 math questions (plus a bonus Q) every night before bed, and award her one extra minute of staying up time for each one she gets right. We've been getting into adding and subtracting three-figure numbers, number sequences, times tables, fractions, all kinds of fun areas, and just yesterday she came home from school saying that they had just started doing the Two Times Table in class. Sheesh!

I've been doing a lot of work at home with my daughter in the evenings, which she really enjoys. I give her 10 math questions (plus a bonus Q) every night before bed, and award her one extra minute of staying up time for each one she gets right. We've been getting into adding and subtracting three-figure numbers, number sequences, times tables, fractions, all kinds of fun areas, and just yesterday she came home from school saying that they had just started doing the Two Times Table in class. Sheesh!

Ohhh great idea..how old is your daughter? My DSD is 8 and we are working on telling time still!!! It amazed me she couldn't tell the time  but she loves doing worksheets for sure.

She'll be 7 in April -- it's definitely rewarding to be spending time studying in the evenings, although it does end up taking a lot of time and energy. It's actually kind of fun to come up with new problems -- lots of stuff involving sharing pizzas (for division & fractions)or bags of candy (for multiplication) or giving change in a shop (subtraction) etc. They really do love doing worksheets at this age: they like the challenge, I think, and the reward of getting it right. She gets a fair number of Q's wrong, which initially was quite hard for her, but it's nice to be able to use those as 'teachable moments' and then see her get a similar question right the following evening.

I may have to come up with more worksheets as I like the idea for every question right 1 minute later of staying up...Great learning tool! Thanks for that

I think class sizes vary depending upon the location of the school.  My son's class started as 23 in Reception became as large as 26 by Yr 3 (due to local army families) and is now back down to 23 in Yr 4.  The problem if they get too small is that they then have to unite year groups as they can't justify having a teacher for a very small group - this is quite common in very small rural schools.  I find that more worrying and would rather the class size stayed large enough to justify a separate class for each year group.

I may have to come up with more worksheets as I like the idea for every question right 1 minute later of staying up...Great learning tool! Thanks for that

...and on non-school nights, each point counts double! (Plus the eleventh question, which is harder, is worth 3 points on a school night and 6 on a weekend....)

I think class sizes are just as large in the US as they are here. I lived in a small city in California, and the average class size was 30-35. What is more important than class size, is parents that are active and involved in their children's school work and have good communication with the teachers.  My son was behind in math when we first got here. I spoke with his teacher, and she sent extra math work home with him, and a book to help with his times tables. In a few weeks she sent me a letter saying he was well ahead of many of the kids in his class. She also sends weekly status reports to help me stay on top of what's going on in class.
  

35 just seems huge, especially for a group of reception aged children. Yikes.

In the U.S., class size varies by state law. I believe in Texas (where I used to teach) the max was 22 for primary grades...which seems quite low, considering schools all over the country are going through budgeting crunches.

Is there a specific law in the UK regarding class size, or does it vary by council? Certainly there has to be a cap somewhere along the line. I'm amazed at the number of "over-subscribed"  schools in this area alone.

Interesting post, woadgrrl -- I have been reading a recent study that examined the idea of class size, and found that although a large class is not a disaster, and can be handled well by a goiod teacher, there are basically no advantages to a big class and that particular in areas like teacher satisfaction and individual attention, small classes are better. If you want to see the study (which focuses on KS2 age kids), just do a google search for 'class size study KS2' and the PDF is right there as the first or second hit.

I totally agree that small class sizes are better.  The thing that seems to be at issue in a lot of studies is, what constitutes 'small.'  The thing I found interesting about the blurb I overheard was that it seemed to suggest that there wasn't a simple sliding scale (i.e. the more kids in the class, the worse it gets), but that there was sort of a cut-off for significant benefits.  I went looking for a transcript or something so that I could look at data for what I'd heard, but had no joy.  Instead, I found this: http://www.wested.org/online_pubs/small_classes.pdf.  

It's a policy paper comparing a lot of different studies on the subject.  It's a few years older than the study you mentioned, and all the studies it looks at were done in the U.S.  Still, you might find it interesting reading.

Thanks for that -- I was quite interested in this study, which looks at the Key Stage 2 age group (7 - 11yrs). The first few pages are pretty dry, with a lot of technical discussion of exactly how the study was carried hout, how the schools were selected, how the observations were carried out, etc. Later in the paper, you get some interesting input from the teachers themselves -- I was struck by the idea that a teacher's happiness with their job and their sense of professional efficacy (i.e. giving each kid in their class what they need), as well as quantities of marking to be done, amount of time spent with crowd control, the logistics of classroom activities, etc., factored in. I can easily see how a teacher who is happy with their job and who feels that they are making a difference could give a lot more than one who is exhausted and overwhelmed.

Anyway, here's the PDF

http://www.classsizeresearch.org.uk/Blatchford.%20Class%20size.%207-11.pdf

I don't teach young children, but I have had class sizes that range from 30 students to 1 student, and IMO the optimal size is between 12 and 15.  Any smaller, and it's hard to get good energy in the classroom; any bigger and it becomes really difficult to focus on individual students.  Plus, disruptive behaviour is more difficult to deal with in larger groups.  But I would agree that there's no significant difference between a group of 25 and a group of 30.  The difference between 15 and 20 is much more noticeable. 

35 just seems huge, especially for a group of reception aged children. Yikes.

Speaking as someone who works with 2-4 year olds definitely agree with a 1 adult to 35 reception aged kids is   yikes   .  I'd imagine at that age there would be teaching assistants in the room as well though so it wouldn't really be that big.

Had a quick look at the website of the primary school we're in catchment for and they say "The school has been designed in even units accommodating 60 children in each plus a 39-place nursery.  The teaching units are organised into year groups with two teachers and two registration groups.  These teams are occasionally extended to incorporate and enhance particular needs of individuals and groups of children, by the support of additional staff for a range of specific educational requirements."  They list staff by year as:

NURSERY
Teacher
Nursery Nurse
Nursery Nurse
Bilingual TA (Part Time)

RECEPTION
Teacher
Teacher
Nursery Nurse
Teaching Assistant
Bilingual TA (Part Time)

YEAR 1
Teacher
Teacher
Teaching Assistant
Teaching Assistant

YEAR 2
Teacher
Teacher
Teaching Assistant
Teaching Assistant

after that it drops to two teachers per year and one TA.