Fainting toddler?

Hi all, it's been ages since I've been on here. I miss everyone and must find time to pop on more often.    I'm hoping to get some advice from some fellow mums and dads.

Our five year old has a pineal cyst in her brain, it's approx 2.75 cm and is right near the top of her brain stem.  So far, we've had MRI's, CT scans, blood work, x-rays, the lot.  She has a great pediatrician and a wonderful neurosurgeon that specializes in little ones.  They both tell us the cyst is nothing to worry about, that they are common and shouldn't cause a problem or need surgery.  We have to get her checked every 6 months or so for new MRI's to measure it's growth as it's hard to tell if it's getting bigger because she's growing or if it's growing faster than she is.  If it starts to get too large, they would have to put a shunt in or worst case scenario, try to go in and remove it.  Neither option is great as the risks are pretty bad. There is no easy way to get to it without going through some pretty important brain stuff. Stressful and scary, but we're adapting to the myriad things we are supposed to watch for, until now...

About 3 weeks ago she had a scratch from a rambunctious cat that bled a bit.  While we were cleaning her up, she fainted, came to after about 20 to 30 seconds and was upset, crying.  We chalked it up to getting woozy from the blood and the scratch, but called her doc to be sure.  He thought the same thing.  Yesterday I got a call from the school for me to come immediately, that she had passed out on the playground and hit her head on a metal bar as she collapsed.

She's got quite the goose egg on her left temple and it's bruised pretty badly.  In talking to the teachers who were around when it happened, she just passed out and as she fell to the ground, hit the metal bar so we know it wasn't a knock to the head that made her pass out.  Again, she was crying and upset afterward, I think it just scares her when it happens.  We called the neuro and they told us to drop everything and take her to hospital.  They checked her out, did an EKG, a new CT scan and checked her blood sugar.  All seemed fine.  We're waiting now for the neuro's nurse to call us back and let us know if we need to take her to the bigger children's hospital near us for more tests, probably an EEG, maybe another MRI.

My question(s) is has anyone had a little one that has/had fainting spells?  Do they know why?  How did you decide how much to let them do at school?

We're trying to figure out how much to restrict her activities at school.  I'm terrified that if she had been at the top of the slide or the jungle gym and passed out that she could have been seriously hurt on the fall.  I don't want to put her in a bubble, she didn't go to preschool and has only just started kindergarten last week and we want her experience to be as normal as possible, but at the same time, I don't want to let anything happen that would end up with her hurt. 

Sorry if this is a bit rambling, we're about as worried as could be and just hoping to get some advice. 

Oh Tristessa, how scary!  I don't have a lot of experience with this but I think you're handling it really well.

I've known children (and adults) who fainted at the sight of blood, or from a big fright or from injections.  Once the cause was identified, the procedure with these children was to prepare them for the shock in advance and to make sure they were sitting/lying down in a safe place in case they passed out. I'm not sure what you should do if you don't know the cause of the fainting.  Maybe people who have experience with epilepsy would have some suggestions?  They might have similar concerns about the danger of a fall.

Wow, that is scary! No experience with toddlers fainting myself, but I used to faint quite easily. I tend to have low blood pressure and I always have. If I stood up too fast, I would either get really dizzy and have to hold on to something or just completely faint. I've banged my head but good several times. I've now learned to sit my butt down ASAP if that dizzy feeling hits me.

Have a talk with your daughter and explain that until you know whats going on that she should probably stay down off of the higher things in the playground. Just for now. Hope you get some answers about the fainting.

It is scary and it does really need to be checked out.

It is hard with a little child because they don't have the words to explain what they are feeling.

In general, if it is a low blood pressure issue (Which I also get, mine is when I am running and stop for some reason like a red light and then start again.  All the blood pools in my legs) you will have a feeling of light headedness and other symptoms. 

So you will know when it is going to happen and you can take steps to stop a full faint from coming on, so you can lower your head or whatever works for you.

If it is a dead stop faint, no symptoms just one second playing and the next bam, that is probably not a low blood pressure issue. 

Either way it needs to be checked out, obviously.  I guess you can ask her how she feels before it happens, but don't ask leading questions. 

If does turn out to be low blood pressure there are some drugs they can put her on, or you can increase her salt intake. 

Thanks for the replies!  She's five and pretty grown up for her age.  We've been really open and honest with her about what is going on.  We didn't want her to have constant doctor appointments and not understand why.  She describes just getting dizzy all of a sudden and like she needs to go to sleep.  The first time there was blood from the cut and that was what we thought caused it, but this second time, it was BAM, out of the blue, no warning.  On the playground and down.  Super lucky she was at ground level.

We had a long talk with her last night and she's going to stick to the lower to the ground stuff on the playground and make sure to be careful on the stairs at school.  I'm waiting for her school to open so I can talk to her Kindergarten teacher and explain that we'd like her to have a normal day, just a bit careful about getting up high anywhere.

The nurse called us back last night and they are going to schedule an EEG as soon as possible and then want us to bring her over to their office as soon as those test results come back.  They want to rule out seizures, but I'm not sure how that would work unless she had some type of episode while they were doing the EEG.  We may request they repeat an MRI earlier than what is scheduled (next Feb is when her next one is due) just to measure the cyst and make sure it's not grown or changed in any way.

We're going to call her pediatrician today and see if they want to do a fasting glucose blood test to rule that out too. I'm still trying to convince myself that it was just a couple of fainting spells that have nothing to do with the other stuff, but that's about impossible. 

She feels great this morning though and the knot on her head looks tons better. She's just happy she gets to go to school today, she wasn't happy about being kept home yesterday. Yesterday when we told her she had to stay home her reply was "Fine. But just so you know, I'm going tomorrow, it's Yellow Day!" She's too darn cute.

I'm not a parent, but I agree with the others to get her checked out.  How scary for her, I can see why she'd be frightened.
 
There are any number of things that can cause fainting and its much better to find out what's going on.  Hopefully she'll be feeling OK soon. 

Even though nothing set her off the second time, like seeing blood, did she feel dizzy or tired?  When I almost faint I noticed that suddenly everything went sort of grey and I couldn't hear very well, like I was falling asleep. I never actually passed out though.

If so, then tell her that if she feels dizzy or tired she should sit down and put her elbows on her knees and her head in her hands (I would say between her legs, but a kid might not be willing to do that on the playground).  If it is a low blood pressure issue it will help the blood get to her head.

If it isn't and she does faint she will be closer to ground. 

I hope this passes.  Sometimes kids do go through stages of this, but they usually outgrow it.

Well the neuro's office called and set us up with an EEG for her next Wednesday.  They aren't sure why she's passing out and it could still very well be just a couple of bad coincidences, but they want to explore every possibility.  That's the hardest thing. We don't want to put her through more than we have to, but don't want to not do something that needs to be done.

This test is going to be a bit rough though.  The day before she can not have any sugar, chocolate, caffeine and has to stay up until Midnight and then back up at 4 am.  Her test is at 9 am.  It's going to take a minimum of 2 hours once they have her hooked up, part of that time, they want her to sleep.  I have no idea how we're going to keep her awake the night before!  She's the kind of kid that has always fallen asleep in the middle of her toys, standing up, with a crayon stuck in her nose 

They are going to order some other tests also before we go back to see her doc later this month.  He's trying to get everything arranged to have all the results back before then.

We had a long talk with her the last couple of nights about how scary we know it is for her when it happens and for her, it happens so quick.  One minute she's fine, the next she's down.  We've told her to sit down right away, no matter where she is and get the teacher's attention. The school knows what's going on and they keep a pretty close eye on her while she's there.  It's a fine balance of making sure people are aware and not having them treat her differently than the other kids.  She was crying yesterday morning before the bus afraid the kids were going to think she was weird or that the teachers would keep asking her about what was going on.  Luckily, all was fine at school yesterday and none of that happened.

I keep hoping she's just a kid that passes out from time to time, that it's not the cyst/tumor.  I hate the idea that surgery would ever have to be a possibility. Her growth is in such a bad place, there are only a few docs in the country that would even touch it if they had to remove it.

Thanks so much everyone, for the responses. It's helping me keep my head from exploding from sheer stress!  She's a little trooper and we'll get her through this, it just sucks right now.  I forgot how much I loved the support I always got on here and how much I miss so many of you! 

I fainted quite a lot when I was young due to hypoglycemia. If your daughter is fainting just before a meal, this could be the cause, except she would be feeling sick (not fine one minute then passed out the next) prior to the fainting. Of course depending on her age she could be too excited about playing outside, etc, to notice symptoms. Obviously a glucose test can tell you more.

My mother and sister started passing out as toddlers from epilepsy. They would be fine one minute then having a seizure the next. With my mother this only ever looked like she was ignoring you or like she passed out.

EEGs suck and I still tear up thinking about my 2 year old sister going through all those tests. Hopefully she will just be that kid that sometimes passes out, but it is good that you are getting the tests ASAP so you don't have to keep wondering the what-ifs for too much longer. 

This is very scary!  I, too, dealt with fainting issues for maybe 3 years before we were able to fully figure out what was wrong wtih me, and was then diagnosed with Premature Ventricular Contractions (PVCs) that cause me to skip heartbeats and pass out.  I've been on a beta blocker for years now with no incident, but that period of unexpected fainting was terrifying.


While it's probably not her heart if she's been checked thoroughly with no issue, I would suggest at least making sure she knows what to do if she feels symptoms coming on.  Before I faint I always get an aura around me, fuzzy vision, ringing in the ears, and then uncontrollable yawning.  Teach her to crouch down as low as she can to the ground to minimize falling and hitting her head, and force herself to hyperventilate in order to get oxygen into her.  While it won't solve the problem all together, you (and she!) may feel better knowing that the warnings can be identified and risk minimized when she's out of your supervision.

I hope you get answers soon!

Thanks again everyone!  We're waiting for her ped doc to decide what blood work he wants done and the neuro did say if the EEG doesn't show anything he'd probably send us off to a cardiologist. I don't know what to hope for, I just really don't want them to find anymore than we already know about and I keep hoping it's all just been a bad coincidence.

Last night when we tucked her in, she told me she was sorry for bumping her head. We spent some long cuddle time reassuring her that none of this was in any way her fault. My poor sweet girl, she's too wonderful for words sometimes.

My daughter had that EEG - her epilepsy showed up like a fingerprint on the EEG and they were able to diagnose her immediately (and avoid a spinal tap which was a relief!).  Also, they were able to tell when she outgrew her epilepsy with another EEG a few years later and she was then able to go off her meds. 

We watched movies until midnight and then I took her to Denny's for breakfast at 4 am to try and keep her awake! 

Hopefully something will show on the EEG and you'll have a definitive answer.  Not knowing is excruciating; I'm so sorry you are having to go through this. 

Mrs. Pink - so did the epilepsy show up on the EEG or was she having seizure activity at the exact time as the EEG? I was thinking that if it were seizures that unless she had one during the test that it wouldn't show up.

Do you know if there are seizures that happen, then it's definitely epilepsy? They had said it was possible it was random seizure activity from the brain cyst/tumor, but I wasn't sure if seizures always meant epilepsy.

Seizures don't always mean epilepsy. My son had one when he was 5 and it wasn't from a fever or anything as he had been completely fine before bed. Went to the neurologist and they saw nothing and said it would probably never happen again. He's 19 now and never had another.

Mrs. Pink - so did the epilepsy show up on the EEG or was she having seizure activity at the exact time as the EEG? I was thinking that if it were seizures that unless she had one during the test that it wouldn't show up.

Do you know if there are seizures that happen, then it's definitely epilepsy? They had said it was possible it was random seizure activity from the brain cyst/tumor, but I wasn't sure if seizures always meant epilepsy.

for my daughter, she had a specific type of epilepsy that showed up on the EEG like a fingerprint without any seizure activity during the test.  I don't know if that is the case for all forms of epilepsy but for her's it was (juvenile benign focal epilepsy) and also was why they were able to tell when she'd outgrown it.  Also, her's tended to present when she was asleep, hence the sleepy EEG - they wanted her to be asleep during the test. 

And no, the presence of seizures doesn't always mean epilepsy.  With all the other things going on with your daughter, it could mean something totally different. 

I hope they find something with the EEG - I know how worrying this is.